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Archived Messages

Count,MessageID,category,ShortTitle,Message,Date,UserName,MsgPswd,Phone,Email,ParentMsgId

“1”,”952795″,”4″,”What happened to the Flying DUKW||952795″,”
I am still in the process of restoring my Super Duck (product improved DUKW of WWII fame). While cruising the internet I saw a posting regarding what happened to the Flying Duck? this may be OBE, but here is some information. During the 31st Annual East Coast Military Vehicle Rally May 2004 at Ripken Stadium Aberdeen, MD; Mr. Tom Murray of Dover Delaware and I were looking at my Super Duck in the display area. Tom Murray is famous in military vehicle circles for his successful business of military vehicle salvage and restoration since WWII when his father started the business. In one passing remark Tom told me that he had bought the Flying Duck at an auction years ago. I had no interest at the time, but after seeing the posting thought someone might find the info useful. Tom Murray is now retired, his son John runs the business in Dover Delaware. The Flying Duck was probably scrapped years ago, but at least closes the chapter on what happened to it.
Regards
Tom…..
“,”2005-12-27″,”Tom Buonaugurio”,”nopswd”,” “,”surplusyes@comcast.net”,”4″

“2”,”945843″,”4″,”Obituary; Emmet D. Swank of Boeing||945843″,”
Emmett Swank, 84, passed away peacefully on December 7, 2005, in Everett. He was born in Unionville, Iowa, on October 22, 1921, to Claude and Clara Swank.
He was a graduate of Ford Kansas High School, class of 1939. He later joined the Army Air Corps and served proudly in Europe during World War II. He married June Wasson, in 1946, and they moved to the Everett area in 1956 to begin a career with the Boeing Company.

Emmett worked in the Boeing Hydrofoil Division, where he spent numerous years traveling throughout the world. Emmet spent many years as the production boss of hydrofoils and ended his career at Boeing as the Key West support group manager. He retired from Boeing in 1985.
Emmett is survived by his devoted wife of 59 years, June; sons, Gordon (Pamela) Swank, of Everett, and Dallas (Jeanne) Swank, of Monroe, Washingotn; grandsons, Emmett R. Swank, of Folsom, California, Logan D. Swank, of Marysville, Washington, and Robyn (Jay) Kibby, of Marysville; and brother, Wendell Swank, of Dodge City, Kansas.
He was preceded in his death by his son, David L. Swank; and three sisters.
At Emmett’s request, no services will be held.”,”2005-12-10″,”William white”,”nopswd”,” “,”whitewn@speakeasy.net”,”4″

“3”,”914592″,”4″,”Designer L E Baynes||914592″,”I found this answer to a question in Google and being a hydrofoil enthusiast I am intriqued.
Do any members of the Society know of the craft mentioned in the last sentence, please?
The following is the quote from the site:- http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=70711
“Subject: Re: second world war
From: nigelweb-ga on 01 Aug 2004 17:37 PDT
=============== For general information:
L E Baynes AFRAeS… most famous for: inventor and held international
patents for first Swing Wing Aircraft (variable sweep).
Chronology (summary): 1919 patented first automatic variable pitch
airscrew, 1924-27 responsible for aerodynamic design of Short
‘Singapore’ Flying-Boat, 1929-30 Designs and manufactured first all
British glider to soar… Scud I. 1933-35 Scud II sailplanes; British
height record holder and international event winner. 1936 Designed and
built Scud III; first retractable and motored sailplane. 1937 Designed
and built first twin-engine pusher monoplane with wing-buried engines.
1939 Project designed ‘gas turbine system’ 100 passenger long-range
aircraft (for ref. see ‘Gas Turbines and Jet Propulsion for Aircraft’
by Geoffrey Smith 1942). 1938 Designed and patented first V/TOL swivel
turbine ‘Heliplane’ . 1939-45 Designed and built for M.O.S.
experimental tail-less flying wing (Baynes Bat) for tank carrying
project (initiated by Churchill) , Designed and implemented conversion
of Boston Bombers to search-light aircraft, submarine guided missiles
and other weapons and equipment for the RAF. 1946-48 Designed and
built for M.O.S. High-Lift Research Aircraft. 1949 Designed and
patented the first Variable-Sweep Fighter Aircraft for supersonic
flight. 1950-62 Designed and manufactured airliner equipment for major
aircraft companies and airlines. 1963-64 Designed and patented a
high-speed hydrofoil sea craft (made secret by the ministry).
“,”2005-10-15″,”T H Connell”,”med14pil”,” “,”t.connell@btopenworld.com”,”4″

“4”,”914591″,”4″,”Designer L E Baynes||914591″,”I found this answer to a question in Google and being a hydrofoil enthusiast I am intriqued.
Do any members of the Society know of the craft mentioned in the last sentence, please?
The following is the quote from the site:- http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=70711
“Subject: Re: second world war
From: nigelweb-ga on 01 Aug 2004 17:37 PDT
=============== For general information:
L E Baynes AFRAeS… most famous for: inventor and held international
patents for first Swing Wing Aircraft (variable sweep).
Chronology (summary): 1919 patented first automatic variable pitch
airscrew, 1924-27 responsible for aerodynamic design of Short
‘Singapore’ Flying-Boat, 1929-30 Designs and manufactured first all
British glider to soar… Scud I. 1933-35 Scud II sailplanes; British
height record holder and international event winner. 1936 Designed and
built Scud III; first retractable and motored sailplane. 1937 Designed
and built first twin-engine pusher monoplane with wing-buried engines.
1939 Project designed ‘gas turbine system’ 100 passenger long-range
aircraft (for ref. see ‘Gas Turbines and Jet Propulsion for Aircraft’
by Geoffrey Smith 1942). 1938 Designed and patented first V/TOL swivel
turbine ‘Heliplane’ . 1939-45 Designed and built for M.O.S.
experimental tail-less flying wing (Baynes Bat) for tank carrying
project (initiated by Churchill) , Designed and implemented conversion
of Boston Bombers to search-light aircraft, submarine guided missiles
and other weapons and equipment for the RAF. 1946-48 Designed and
built for M.O.S. High-Lift Research Aircraft. 1949 Designed and
patented the first Variable-Sweep Fighter Aircraft for supersonic
flight. 1950-62 Designed and manufactured airliner equipment for major
aircraft companies and airlines. 1963-64 Designed and patented a
high-speed hydrofoil sea craft (made secret by the ministry).
“,”2005-10-15″,”T H Connell”,”nopswd”,” “,”t.connell@btopenworld.com”,”4″

“5”,”908710″,”4″,”Hovering Craft and Hydrofoil Index||908710″,”I have created and posted a list of articles for each of the past issues of Hovering Craft & Hydrofoil Magazine (predecessor to Fast Ferry International). Go to: www.exigent.info/HC&Hcontents.pdf

This is not a complete list, so I would very much appreciate additions from anybody who has copies of any issue or issues missing from the list!”,”2005-10-06″,”Barney C Black”,”poopdeck”,” “,” “,”4”

“6”,”884498″,”4″,”Re; Little Squirt = Pump Jet?||884498″,”Barney,

By the time of the 1968-69 issue (2nd issue) of Jane’s Surface Skimmer Systems, “Little Squirt” was being referred to as “Little Squirt” with no mention of an earlier name. They wrote: “Little Squirt was designed and built by Boeing in 1962 as a company sponsored water-jet research vehicle”.”,”2005-08-28″,”Martin Grimm”,”nopswd”,” “,”seaflite@alphalink.com.au”,”877875″

“7”,”877875″,”4″,”Little Squirt = Pump Jet?||877875″,”I just saw an article in the Jan 1963 edition of Hovering Craft and Hydrofoil about Boeing’s water-jet hydrofoil. The craft is named “Pump Jet” in the photo caption. Was this an early or maybe an “official” name for “Little Squirt”?”,”2005-08-16″,”Barney C Black”,”poopdeck”,” “,” “,”4”

“8”,”865794″,”4″,”Hovering Craft and Hydrofoil Mags on eBay||865794″,”I have put several lots of HC&H magazines up for auction on eBay. These are from Neil Lien’s collection, that he is cleaning up. Before auctioning them I am making an index of articles and keywords for the magazines I have… will put this up on the IHS site when I am done. There are some gaps in the magazines I have, so I will be asking people if they have any of the issues I have not seen if they would be willing to send information for the index. If you want to bid on some or all of these, go to eBay and search for hydrofoil. So far the magazines have been selling for about a dollar each plus postage.”,”2005-07-24″,”Barney C Black”,”poopdeck”,” “,” “,”0”

“9”,”856104″,”4″,”Re; AGEH-1 and PCH-1 Status||856104″,”I saw a set of plans (for a model in 1:25?)for sale on Ebay.com once.
Was to late for it.
It had a description in french.
I olny have the Popular Mechanics,but that’s to litle to make a
RC model of the Plainview…
Maybe someone out there know a bit more??

Gteetzz from Holland.
“,”2005-07-05″,”Mark van Rijzen”,”nopswd”,” “,”dutchhydrofoils@wanadoo.nl”,”0″

“10”,”855605″,”4″,”Re; AGEH-1 and PCH-1 Status||855605″,”added photo (last of 4)”,”2005-07-04″,”Tom Jensen”,”nopswd”,” “,”c180tom@eskimo.com”,”0″

“11”,”855603″,”4″,”Re; AGEH-1 and PCH-1 Status||855603″,”added photo (3 of 4)”,”2005-07-04″,”Tom Jensen”,”nopswd”,” “,”c180tom@eskimo.com”,”0″

“12”,”855601″,”4″,”Re; AGEH-1 and PCH-1 Status||855601″,”added photos (4 total)”,”2005-07-04″,”Tom Jensen”,”nopswd”,” “,”c180tom@eskimo.com”,”0″

“13”,”855597″,”4″,”AGEH-1 and PCH-1 Status||855597″,”I took the enclosed pictures of poor ol’ Plainview grounded in Hungry Harbor on March 25, 2005 when visiting the Astoria and Long Beach area. There is a rough “Gyppo” salvage operation underway, probably reflecting the price of aluminum. Seeing the innards exposed was sad and almost disrespectful, but it brought back many memories. (e.g., the hullborne line shaft couplings visible in .1.1 reminded me of hanging over the railing in that compartment late at night in north of Haro Straights, replacing the shear pins in a coupling. The engineering crew made suitable temporary pins from a bolt and installing it was sure proof of my sea legs, with fumes and sea conditions causing lots of rolling motion.) I have some almost “artsy” Plainview slides from the early 70’s, including one of the supercavitating propellers against an evening sky. If you think folks would be interested, I’ll dig them out and scan a few. I also tried to run down the location of PCH-1. It had apparently been moved from the private dock east of the Maritime museum in Astoria to Tongue Point. The area was closed to the public so I couldn’t investigate further. It was rumored to have been scrapped. Sincerely, Tom Jensen Boeing engineering support of Hystu, 1971-1975 “,”2005-07-04″,”Tom Jensen”,”nopswd”,” “,”c180tom@eskimo.com”,”0″

“14”,”824682″,”4″,”Re; Hydrofoil Archieves||824682″,”Search our web site under High Pockets (Note Two Words)

Typical finds on our site at: //archive.foils.org/baker.htm#hp

I doubt any real technical reports have survived within the Navy from that far back. At least I do not remember any from the Advanced Ship Data bank of reports at Caderock DTNSRDC.

Bill White”,”2005-05-06″,”white”,”nopswd”,” “,”whitewn@speakeasy.net”,”0″

“15”,”824464″,”4″,”Hydrofoil Archieves||824464″,”Can anyone give me a reference to obtain “HIGHPOCKETS” technical reports?

Also the same for “SEALEGS”

Gerry Levine, GALUS MARINE LLC
e-mail levinega@galusmarine.com

561-628-5940″,”2005-05-06″,”Gerry Levine”,”nopswd”,” “,”gerrymega@adelphia.net”,”0″

“16”,”795121″,”4″,”Longest Voyage||795121″,”I have a history question: What is the longest voyage made by a full-flying hydrofoil? That is, a boat capable of lifting the whole hull out of the water, as opposed to a boat that is foil-stabilized and retains some buoyant support at all times.

Has any full-flying hydrofoil ever crossed an ocean? Circumnavigated?”,”2005-03-12″,”Tom Speer”,”nopswd”,” “,”me@tspeer.com”,”0″

“17”,”790207″,”4″,”Re: Plainview Patch / Badge Origin||790207″,”Referring to the picture provided in the original message by Barney Black, the top left patch is the original logo designed by POIC Lt. Hugh Burkons. Plaques were also cast with this logo. Some time later, the top right patch took over. Designer is unknown to me. Plaques were also cast with this logo. The bottom patch is the military hydrofoil generic patch. Patches were made for all the military hydrofoils with this logo with their respective names. “,”2005-03-03″,”S. Arima”,”nopswd”,” “,”SA_IHS_1980@verizon.net”,”0″

“18”,”790045″,”4″,”Plainview Patch / Badge Origin||790045″,”Can anyone tell me anything about the origin and authenticity of the patches in the photo? Which organization issued them and when? Why the three different versions? Are there any other Plainview patches issued that are not represented in the photo? Thanks!”,”2005-03-03″,”Barney C Black”,”nopswd”,” “,”bcblack@erols.com”,”0″

“19”,”787382″,”4″,”In Memoriam: Harlowe Longfelder||787382″,”Sumi Arima submitted the following link to the obituary for Harlowe Longfelder printed in the Seattle Post Intelligencer. He was a leader in Boeing’s space and missile programs, as well as the hydrofoil boat program. For a time, he was Al Rand’s boss on the HYSTU support contract.

http://www.legacy.com/Link.asp?Id=LS03207915X

“,”2005-02-25″,”Barney C Black”,”poopdeck”,” “,”bcblack@erols.com”,”0″

“20”,”743860″,”4″,”JETFOIL model pics. (nm) ||743860″,”No Message”,”2004-11-26″,”yoichi takahashi “,”nopswd”,” “,”skyex@triton.ocn.ne.jp”,”0″

“21”,”743858″,”4″,” Wonderful Boeing jetfoil (nm) ||743858″,”No Message”,”2004-11-26″,”yoichi takahashi “,”nopswd”,” “,”skyex@triton.ocn.ne.jp”,”0″

“22”,”743857″,”4″,”JETFOIL model pics. (nm) ||743857″,”No Message”,”2004-11-26″,”yoichi takahashi “,”nopswd”,” “,”skyex@triton.ocn.ne.jp”,”0″

“23”,”743856″,”4″,”JETFOIL model pics. (nm) ||743856″,”No Message”,”2004-11-26″,”yoichi takahashi “,”nopswd”,” “,”skyex@triton.ocn.ne.jp”,”0″

“24”,”743855″,”4″,” Wonderful Boeing jetfoil ||743855″,”Hello. Clark Dodge san
Since the mail like the point was imperfect, it re-contributes. I am a Japanese radio control ship maniac. Your contribution report was read. I very like the Boeing jetfoil. The photograph of a radio control jetfoil which I manufactured to BBS in March, this year was carried. In order to make this jetfoil, I went to ride on the jetfoil put into service to Kansai Airport in Japan, and experienced the wonderful degree of comfort. You who participated in the program which builds such a wonderful ship are wonderful. The picture of the radio control model of the Boeing jetfoil which I manufactured is sent here again. Above”,”2004-11-26″,”yoichi takahashi “,”nopswd”,” “,”skyex@triton.ocn.ne.jp”,”0″

“25”,”743844″,”4″,”A wonderful jetfoil program||743844″,”control ship maniac, I very like the Boeing jetfoil. My model radio control jetfoil was contributed also to this BBS in March, this year. And I went to take purposely the ship of thing of the jetfoil put into service to access of Kansai Airport in Japan, in order to make the radio control model of this jetfoil, and I have experienced the wonderful degree of comfort. It is very wonderful that you came considering development of the jetfoil of the wonderful degree of comfort as work. Here, since the radio control jetfoil which I made is contributed once again here, please see. Above”,”2004-11-26″,”yoichi takahashi “,”nopswd”,” “,”skyex@triton.ocn.ne.jp”,”0″

“26”,”743420″,”4″,”Re: Boeing Jetfoil Program||743420″,”Clark, there is a group of retired Boeing engineers in the Seattle area that are veterans of Boeing’s various hydrofoil programs and that meet for lunch occasionally and informally to keep in touch and remember old times. I believe I have email addresses for a couple of them that I know from the Navy PHM program, so I will forward your posting to them.”,”2004-11-24″,”Barney C Black”,”poopdeck”,” “,”barney@alum.mit.edu”,”0″

“27”,”737676″,”4″,”Boeing Jetfoil Program||737676″,”I just thought I would send a note about the Boeing Jetfoil, and the
documents you have on IHS.

I am a SNAME member of the Pacific Northwest Section, (#17706) and the
senior Staff Chief Engineer for Washington State Department of
Transportation Marine Division. One of my fun times was a part of the
Boeing Jetfoil test program in Seattle. These vessel were absolutely a
dream to work and ride. It is a shame that as much work was not put into
them to make them work as the negative attacks. Compared to many vessels
today they were a good melt of airplane and vessel. I have many hours of
riding and night maintenance to remember. They were a blast.

Now after 38 years and enjoying my present assignment as Staff Chief
Engineer of the Jumbo Mark II, MV Wenatchee, I am retiring to pursue my
consulting business.

Clark Dodge, President
CED Consulting LLC
225 SW 171st. Street
Seattle, WA. 98166
(206) 244-9849
Phone: 206-244-9849
Fax: 206-988-3769
Clark@burien.net
“,”2004-11-14″,”Clark Dodge”,”theboard”,” “,”Clark@burien.net”,”0″

“28”,”705827″,”4″,”Re: Current Status of PHMs||705827″,”Thanks for that update, Dan. I will make sure the IHS NL editor sees your status report… he may well want to include it in the next newsletter… if so, he may ask you for a couple of photos to illustrate the news.”,”2004-09-08″,”Barney C Black”,”poopdeck”,” “,”bcblack@erols.com”,”0″

“29”,”702077″,”4″,”Current Status of PHMs||702077″,”I recently went on vacation in North Carolina. Prior to me leaving I contacted Eliot James (owner PHM-5) and he gave me contact information for Jim Lovlace the person who had purchased the other 4 remaining foils(PHM-2,3,5&6).

Two of the ships have been scrapped (PHM-2 and an unknown)

I got a personal tour of PHM-6 which has been re-outfitted with (3) 16V92 Detroit Diesels for Propulsion. The center gas turbine propulsor was replaced by one of the diesel driven ones from a scrapped PHM. The sides our now white and mirror smooth, gone are the days of print-thru thanks to high end marine bondo. There is an observation window set in the front bow area and a pair of glass bottom windows in the aft just forward of the hullborne waterjet intakes..The discussion of the day was trying to decide on a 8 or 10 person hot tub where the turbine exhaust once was.

The remaining untouched phm I walked around on taking many pictures and some digital video. My guess is that it was the Taurus but may have been the Aquila. They started cutting it up for scrap but the hydraulics on the front actuator leaked and the coast guard had shut down the scrapping.

David Jennings the owner of the Gemini (PHM-6) Purchased that remaining mystery PHM on the day I was there saving it from a Norfolk scrapyard. He stated that he is unsure of how extreme of a makeover the remaining PHM will have.

I guess the ships contain some very interesting metallurgy according to Jim Lovelace. He said that most parts are a very corrosion resistant aluminum. He hardly noticed any corrosion on the Phm’s as they were cut up. Also some water was in the bilge of the PHM I toured but hardly noticed any corrosion.

The final score:

PHM-1 (gone, cut up in Charleston SC)
PHM-2 (gone, cut up in Wilmington NC)
PHM-3 & 4 (one gone one exists)
PHM-5 (sitting safely in the Missouri River being restored)
PHM-6 (extreme makeover is an understatement)

Dan Schmidt
“,”2004-08-30″,”Dan Schmidt”,”theboard”,” “,”gse2schmidt@ameritech.net”,”0″

“30”,”697280″,”4″,”Re; Re; AGEH-1 Plainview Plans||697280″,”Hi Mark, the record of the ebay auction will still be on the ebay website for a few weeks, so it would be possible to contact the winning bidder to see if he or she would be willing to make a copy and give or sell it. If you do not remember the item number, it is possible to search the ended auctions to find it again. – BArney”,”2004-08-20″,”Barney C Black”,”poopdeck”,” “,”bcblack@erols.com”,”0″

“31”,”694059″,”4″,”Re; AGEH-1 Plainview Plans||694059″,”Hello, I saw one go up for sale on ebay.com,but I was to late to buy it..The decripion was in french.”,”2004-08-13″,”Capt Mark van Rijzen”,”nopswd”,” “,”dutchhydrofoils@wanadoo.nl”,”0″

“32”,”692416″,”4″,”Re; AGEH-1 Plainview Plans||692416″,”James,
Early issues of Jane’s Surface Skimmers (from late 60’s) contained small scale three view drawings of the Plainview. They would hardly be sufficient to build a good scale model from however. The other suggestion therefore is for you to browse through 60’s vintage issues of “Hovering Craft and Hydrofoil” journal as that may contain a better arrangement drawing. This journal may be held at larger libraries or those of universities. “,”2004-08-10″,”Martin Grimm”,”nopswd”,” “,”seaflite@alphalink.com.au”,”0″

Speedboat / Hydrofoil Racing History

Speedboat Racing History Question

• • [10 Feb 02] Do you know anything about a hydrofoil named the MISS U.S.-3? I have two pictures of it in a 1964 book by E.A. Steiner Jr. and Lee Schoenith called Unlimited Incorporated, with a picture of the 1962 record-setting MISS US on the cover. It made an attempt at the world’s water speed record in the 1930s. This was supposed to be the first high-speed hydrofoil. E.S. Evans Sr. was involved. (He is the father of Robert B. Evans who had the hydroplane MISS UNITED STATES III and later the STARS AND STRIPES jet hydroplanes.) The craft, nicknamed the “Whale,” was powered by aircraft engines of some type. It rode on a type of 3-point suspension on two hydrofoil wings and rudder-wheel system and was designed on a hydrofoil principle. It had two ladder foil structures on each side, with two steps on the inside one and three on the outside one. The craft had three open cockpits at the bow, and it looks like they each held one person. On the bow were the numbers 55-A. There was a red, white, and blue burge type flag that had three stars and was inside a triangle with MISS US-3 in front. I would like any information on this craft you could come up with, if possible. — Michael Prophet (

sharonandmike@mindspring.com

• • )

• • Response…

• • [10 Feb 02] IHS has no information at hand on this; it is not mentioned in the hydrofoil history references that I have seen, such as D.W. Fostle’s book Speedboat. Note that MISS US-I, MISS US-II, and MISS US-IV were all “hydroplane” racing boats, and we have done nothing with those on our site. A better reference would be Leslie Fields’ Hydroplane History website. We would be interested in a copy of any info you can dig up on the vessel and its designer and builder. As to the first high speed hydrofoil, that would probably be the HD-4 by Alexander Graham Bell and Casey Baldwin, which set a record of 70.86 mph in 1919. This speed was not exceeded until MISS AMERICA VIII achieved 75.28 mph in the Harmsworth Race in 1929. — Barney C. Black (

webmaster@foils.org

• • )

• • [10 Mar 02] The name ‘Bob Sellars’ does turn up on the website of Simon Lewis and clarifies the question: “…During the build, Vaughan also recalls that some work was done by Bob Sellars, exactly what it was he isn’t sure, but Bob Sellars went on to design part of the Lightning fighter plane.” The English Electric P.1B research prototype first flight was on 4 August 1954. The production F.1 Lightning began entering service in 1959. This was a UK post war jet fighter aircraft and not the WW2 US designed twin propeller aircraft of the same name. These dates also line up well with the time that the ‘White Hawk’ was being run in the UK in 1952. — Martin Grimm (

seaflite@alphalink.com.au

• • )

[Date/Time=03-23-2002 – 1:01 AM]

Name:webmaster@foils.org [Msgid=237131]
Archive; PLAINVIEW (AGEH-1) Updates

ViewThread
Click below to Open.

https://archive.foils.org/plainvw.htm
[Date/Time=03-24-2002 – 1:40 AM]

Name:webmaster@foils.org [Msgid=237497]
Archive; HIGH POINT (PCH-1)
Click below to Open.

https://archive.foils.org/highpt.htm
[Date/Time=03-24-2002 – 1:43 AM]

Name:webmaster@foils.org [Msgid=237498]
Archive; FLAGSTAFF (PGH-1)
Click below to Open.

https://archive.foils.org/flagstaff.htm
[Date/Time=03-24-2002 – 1:45 AM]    Name:webmaster@foils.org [Msgid=237500]
Archive; Other Historic Hydrofoils
click below to Open.

https://archive.foils.org/pioneers.htm#letters
[Date/Time=03-24-2002 – 11:47 AM]

Name:webmaster@foils.org [Msgid=237606]
Archive; History of IHS
Click below to Open

https://archive.foils.org/ihs25his.pdf
[Date/Time=03-24-2002 – 3:19 PM]

Name:webmaster@foils.org [Msgid=237688]
Archive; PLAINVIEW (AGEH-1) Updates

• • I happened upon the PLAINVIEW unexpectedly and was thrilled to see a famous prototype, but saddened by the condition. Here is a 2002 picture of the Plainview which you are free to post to your website

https://archive.foils.org/plainvw.htm

• • if desired. I worked for a time at Boeing Advanced Marine Systems on the next generation of hydrofoils.

[Date/Time=05-12-2002 – 7:34 AM]

Name:Bob Cline clinewlt@pacifier.com, [Msgid=258421]
Why Aren`t There More Hydrofoils?

ViewThread

• • Hydrofoils are basically a commercial and military failure. I live in south Florida and boat in these waters — the above statement is visually obvious. My interest is in reading any critical analysis as to why. My additional interest is to meet with a current or former Navy or Coast Guard Hydrofoil program development sponsor to ask his/her opinion for this failure. I will be available to meet the experts where ever they currently live.

[Date/Time=05-31-2002 – 9:50 PM]

Name:Gerald Levine GERRYMEGA@aol.com, [Msgid=266151]
Why Aren`t There More Hydrofoils?

• • There is information related to this question posted on the IHS website in several locations:

https://archive.foils.org/morefoil.htm

• • ,

https://archive.foils.org/knots.htm

• • ,

https://foils.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/phmhist.pdf

• • and

https://archive.foils.org/log.htm

• • for starters. Please feel free to contact anyone whose email address you find in the correspondence archive and that you think may be a good person to discuss this with. Also, the IHS Board of Directors are listed with bios and contact info at

https://archive.foils.org/theboard.htm

• • .

• • While you are certainly correct that there are not many hydrofoils operating in Florida these days (except sailboats), it is a bit extreme to extrapolate from that that “hydrofoils are a commercial and military failure.”

• • • • 1. Hydrofoil passenger vessels are common in Russia, for example, and if there are fewer today than yesterday, this may be more a reflection of the Russian economy than of a hydrofoil failure
        2. PHMs were a failure in that only the USA followed through to buy any, but they were a success in counternarcotics and FleetEx activities conducted out of Key West. Yes they were decommissioned with many years of service life remaining. The main reason cited was operating and maintenance costs; however keep in mind that these ships had the highest OPTEMPO of any class in the Navy and were kept ready to scramble on short notice. Their mission is now being accomplished by much larger blue water warships with larger crews and costly weapons suites that have little utility for drug busting
        3. The hydrofoils that Helmut Kock assembled on Lake Titicaca in Peru are still carrying tourists today

    So it is more accurate to say that hydrofoils have successfully found their niches here and there in the past. Likely they will continue to do so. There is still quite a bit of interest around the world in hydrofoils, as evidenced every day by the participation in IHS.

[Date/Time=06-01-2002 – 6:21 AM]

Name:Barney C. Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=266225]
Why Aren`t There More Hydrofoils?

• • In my opinion, the hydrofoils built during the 1970s were still ahead of their time.Consider how enabling technology has advanced since then.

• • Computers have increased in speed, decreased in size, and decreased in cost — this could make flight control systems much more effective at much less cost.

• • Materials have advanced dramatically since then. This could have a huge impact on reducing the cost of struts and foils. The hull structure could be built at much lower weight — a big impact on hydrofoil efficiency.

• • We’ve also seen big improvements in hydromechanics. This could result in drag reduction and much less expensive and complex control systems.

• • Machinery has also advanced. The advances, for example, in high power, dense waterjets have made this system more effective and less costly. Gas turbine propulsion is now much more prevalent and power densitied have risen at lower cost and improved fuel consumption.

• • Hydrofoils are more sensitive to these factors than are other vehicles. Thus, they have more potential for benefit from them. I believe that hydrofoils designed today would be much more cost-competitive and reliable than those in the past. This is not intended to disparage the work done in the past. As Barney points out, hydrofoils were, and are, effective. They could be even more so, now. I’m just afraid that the environment has been spoiled.

• • It would be very interesting to see both naval and commercial hydrofoil designs using modern technology.

[Date/Time=06-08-2002 – 7:34 AM]

Name:Jim King dominionmaritime@aol.com, [Msgid=269043]
PHM 1 PEGASUS Plankowner

• • I was a member of the PHM IMLSG from May 1976 to the departure of PHM-1 Pegasus for the east coast (I tossed off the last mooring line from the pier and waved good-bye to a lot of friends…). At that time I was one of the ET gang and frequently substituted for crew members on the Pegasus when they were on leave or whatever. I also have the usual spate of sea-stories associated with early trials and deployment of Pegasus (before they stepped the mast of the Pegasus, each of the contributing country’s representatives from the USA, Germany and Itlay, tossed a coin from their respective country into the mast pit. I wonder if the salvage people ever noticed them?). If you weren’t in on the early sea trials, you wouldn’t know the significance of jellybeans, mint oil, why the forward officers shower became a closet (flushing the crapper would land the ship due to interference with the ultra-sonic height sensor), pink waveguide in combat etc.

• • Carl A. Allison

• • Plank Owner USS Pegasus/IMLSG ET1 (USNR)

[Date/Time=06-10-2002 – 7:06 AM]

Name:Carl A. Allison guzzi007@postoffice.pacbell.net, [Msgid=269632]
Archive; PLAINVIEW (AGEH-1) Updates

• • As countless others, I too have taken interest in the mystical site of PLAINVIEW as she rests on the muddy Washington shoreline. I?ve driven by her 100?s of times in the past 5 years and several times have I stopped to photograph or simply sit and gaze at the saddening yet inspiring site that she is. I?m writing today to ask if anyone has any blue prints or photographs of her during her years of service. I have a collection of photographs in her current state but anything I?ve found thus far of her in service are off the internet and the picture quality is poor. I?m hoping to put together a collage of blueprints, glory pics, and current pics for my own personal viewing not for monetary gain I assure you. If anyone viewing this message can be of any assistance to me please know it is greatly appreciated. I understand the possibility that individuals may not want to part with original photographs and/or blueprints but maybe if they can be scanned in at a high resolution I could have them reprinted somewhat close to photograph quality.

• • Thank you for time.

• • Quinton G. Steckler

• • Tacoma, WA

[Date/Time=06-10-2002 – 3:23 PM]

Name:Quinton G. Steckler qsteckler@tuthill.com, [Msgid=269818]
Archive; PLAINVIEW (AGEH-1) Updates

• • I have a few original photographs. I could let you go through them if you desire. I live in Redmond (Microsoft country. E-mail me for arrangements.

• • Sumi

[Date/Time=06-19-2002 – 5:35 PM]

Name:S. Arima arimas1@juno.com, [Msgid=273467]
Archive; PLAINVIEW (AGEH-1) Updates

• • I got your e-mail asking me to scan my pictures and e-mail them to you. I thought that you were unhappy with the pictures that were scanned into the internet as to the quality. Thus I offered access to my original prints. Although I have scanner, I have no idea as to what views you are looking for, thus you are asking me for the moon. Please clarify.

• • Sumi

[Date/Time=06-20-2002 – 12:58 PM]

Name:S. Arima arimas1@juno.com, [Msgid=273755]
HIGH POINT Veteran

• • Hello My name is Marty I was stationed on the USS HIGH POINT from Sept 81 to Feb 83 along with Mason, Tucker, Ray the cook, and all the others. I was in the engineering department, and helped rebuild foilborne trans. Haven’t seen her in years. Sounds like she’s doing OK; she was a fun ship to be on… We did all kinds of trials; we also brought her to the Rose Festival in Portland, Oregon in 1982. That was a blast because I’m from Oregon.

[Date/Time=06-22-2002 – 3:23 PM]

Name:Marty catheyj54@aol.com, [Msgid=274424]
Hydrodynamic Test System HTS

ViewThread

• • I am looking for information on the 1958 Boeing Hydrodynamic Test system (HTS). It was a 37 to 38 foot picklefork hydroplane that used a Boeing 707 turbojet engine. Boeing was under contract to build this for the U.S. Navy.

[Date/Time=06-29-2002 – 9:27 PM]

Name:Michael Prophet sharonandmike@mindspring.com, [Msgid=276943]
Hydrodynamic Test System HTS

• • Your inquiry has two different programs combined. The Boeing HTS was a Boeing project, not US Navy, to obtain test data such as lift and

• • drag from foil models. It used a gas turbine, which I believe was a

• • Boeing 502. The boat was of limited success because of the four point

• • hull design which affected the stability of the boat and the data, which had to be filtered out of the foil data collected. The US Navy contracted with Boeing for the FRESH-1, which used a pure Pratt & Whitney jet similar to that used on the Boeing 707. The FRESH-1 was also designed to obtain high speed test data from a super cavitating foil and strut mounted on a force balance. Since the FRESH-1 actually flew on the foil, the data was more useful. The US Navy chose to stay with the sub- cavitating foils, and thus did not use the FRESH-1 after delivery. The people involved with these projects have retired. If you are looking for specific information, we will attempt to find answers for you.

[Date/Time=06-29-2002 – 9:30 PM]

Name:Sumi Arima arimas1@juno.com, [Msgid=276944]
Hydrodynamic Test System HTS

• • According to a paper back in 1965 by G. R. Myers (not related to me) the HTS had an Allison J-33 turbo -jet having a thrust of 4,600 lb. The craft was 16,000 lb, was 38 ft long and capable of 80 knots. I came across this paper which has a lot of great stuff in it when I drafted my book “Ships That Fly” about 10 years ago, and described these and many other hydrofoils. The Boeing 502 gas turbine engine (about 425 hp) was used on LITTLE SQUIRT. The FRESH-1 engine was a Pratt & Whitney JT3D-3 turbofan rated at 17,000 lb thrust.

[Date/Time=06-29-2002 – 9:33 PM]

Name:John Meyer jmeyer@erols.com, [Msgid=276945]
Hydrodynamic Test System HTS

• • I came across the following info from a series of articles on “The History of Hydrofoils” by Leslie Hayward published in

Hovering Craft and Hydrofoil

• • , and this was in part VIII of that series:

• • “During December 1960 The Boeing Company announced that tests on high-speed watercraft would take place on Seattle’s Lake Washington and that a jet-propelled boat would be used as a floating test laboratory.

• • The

AQUA-JET

• • , an 11,600 lb displacement Boeing jet-propelled research hydroplane, was first put into operation during 1961. Powered by a 4,600 lb thrust, Allison J-33 turbo-jet engine, mounted well above the waterline and aft of the c of g, the craft is capable of speeds of up to 100 knots! …the 38-ft lobster-shaped craft has provision for placing hydrofoil models and other marine shapes in the water between the arms of the claws. Tests are normally carried out on quiet water during daylight hours. The starboard cockpit carries the driver, and the port cockpit the test observer. Detailed design of the

AQUA-JET

• • , constructed primarily of mahogany plywood, was done under Boeing contract by Phillip F. Spaulding and Assoc., Seattle naval architects and marine engineers. The hull was constructed by Blanchard Boat Co. of Seattle.”

[Date/Time=06-30-2002 – 8:04 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=277035]
Hydrodynamic Test System HTS

• • You would have seen my separate message to Michael Prophet regarding HTS which backs up the information you provided. Just to make things complicated, I also looked at the contribution to the IHS 25th

• • Anniversary Celebration and Conference by Prof D.E. Calkins. For HTS he indicates some different particulars:

• • • 1. Three point hydroplane
      2. 14,000 lb gross weight
      3. Pratt and Whitney J-48 turbojet engine of 7,200 lb thrust
      4. Max speed 145 knots without model hydrofoil, 80 knots with model hydrofoil

• • Noting the various speeds and powers quoted, perhaps it was re-powered at some stage in its life?

[Date/Time=06-30-2002 – 8:10 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=277036]
Larson VOLERO With Foils

• • A short article in the January 1966 Popular Science mentioned a Larson VOLERO equipped with optional hydrofoils. I just learned that the hydrofoil was strictly an experimental thing. It was never officially offered in the Larson literature.

[Date/Time=06-30-2002 – 8:15 AM]

Name:Ed Anderson larsonboats@larsonboats.com, [Msgid=277037]
spargi/Curl Curl

ViewThread

• • Does the RHS 140 last known as Spargi (formerly Curl Curl from the Sydney fleet) stil operate. If so can you sent me details.

nic_patrick@hotmail.com
[Date/Time=07-01-2002 – 7:36 AM]

Name:nick patrick nic_patrick@hotmail.com, [Msgid=277342]
spargi/Curl Curl

• • Nick,

• • Have you seen the message from Garry Fry of 8 September 2000 on the IHS website that indicated: “LONG REEF, CURL CURL, MANLY, and SYDNEY survived until 1991 and were taken back to Italy by Rodriquez to be resold or leased in the Mediterannean by various operators. CURL CURL was renamed SPARGI and is now on the market for US$500 000. Both RHS160Fs are in service to the best of my knowledge, I am unsure of LONG REEF ‘s status.”

• • As far as I am aware, Spargi is still owned by Ustica Lines (purchased by them from Aliscafi SNAV in 1995). It was operated on their Trapani-Egadi Island route off Sicily. Certainly the craft is still indicated as being in their fleet if you go to the following website:

https://www.usticalines.it/flotta.htm

• • Note however that the photo of a RHS 140 they show is apparently not actually of Spargi itself.

• • If you are able to find more up to date confirmation of this, I would be pleased to hear about it.

[Date/Time=07-03-2002 – 4:11 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=278259]
Museums for Hydrofoils?

ViewThread

• • At 08:56 PM 6/30/02 +0200, you wrote:

• • Next week I will try to phone one of the museums responsible to ask about this detail of the craft. But I know a much better resource for detailed information – the chief engineer of Luerssen’s Shipyard. Perhaps he is able to make copies of the drawings of this prototype. This must be a better kind of information than photos of the prototype itself. It is possible that they removed the equipment your are interested in before giving the boat to the museum. I do not think, that the museum’s staff is knows much about this item, because they are more specialized on historic cars and airplanes (They got a Tupolev Tu-144 supersonic plane as one of their major items.). They are not very interested in maritime history as the specialized museum in Bremerhaven. I will try to phone the engineer at Luerssen’s in the next weeks. Another think I can do is to ask the staff of the Bremerhaven’s shipping museum about details of the Wendell-craft. Bremerhaven is two-hour by car away from my location and I have planned a visit there as every year in the summer time. It would not be any problem, to take more detailed pictures if they are allowing it. But I do not await no very new kinds of information about the control mechanism, because there is not very much to see from outside. I did not have detected any sensors located on the foils. Perhaps they worked with a mechanical primitive gyro assisted autopilot taken from a airoplane? Most of the developers of German hydrofoils had been involved in the Germany aircraft industry of the pre-wartime and the wartime. They changed their engagement in this branch to the hydrofoil development due to the aft-war restrictions by the allies to the German aircraft industries. For example, Ernst Heinkel and Willy Messerschmidt both developed small cars and other motor vehicles after the WW II. They gave up this business after the restrictions had been given up. The Messerschmidt Company developed itself into the most important aircraft manufacturer of Germany resulting the growing up of the EADS Group. Another important aircraft engineer, Professor Focke, who developed the well-known Focke-Wuld FW 190 fighter, developed after the WW II some hydrofoil prototypes but he left Germany in the early fifties to Argentina. Today there is no existing fast ferry industry in Germany. It seems to be curious, that a country calling itself a high technology country has ignored the most important development of the past years in the maritime industry.

• • Regards,

• • C. Schramm

[Date/Time=07-04-2002 – 5:52 PM]

Name:C. Schramm c_schramm@t-online.de, [Msgid=278839]
Museums for Hydrofoils?

• • Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 11:27 AM

• • Subject: Re: AW: L?rssen Prototype and ‘Bremer Pionier’

• • Thanks Christof, that sounds like it will be time well spent.

• • Meanwhile, I have been browsing through the article you sent me. I have put reference to it on our reference page with enough key words that someone can find it if they search. It will not hurt to ask the museum to take flash photos inside if there is any mechanism remaining… the worst they can do is to say no.

• • Best regards, Barney

[Date/Time=07-04-2002 – 5:55 PM]

Name:Barney Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=278840]
Museums for Hydrofoils?

• • Juli 2002 11:50

• • Re: L?rssen Prototype and ‘Bremer Pionier’

• • It was interesting to read that Focke was also involved with hydrofoils in the post war years. It seems to me that all the German hydrofoil developments in that period remained fairly obscure, as indeed did the developments of the various military hydrofoils during the war. It would be nice if these developments could all be traced in a logical sequence for a future IHS newsletter item.

• • Incidentally, part of the Messerschmidt Company (it was known as MBB later in its life) also became Eurocopter when it merged with Aerospatiale of France.

• • Martin Grimm,

[Date/Time=07-04-2002 – 6:00 PM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=278841]
Museums for Hydrofoils?

• • Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 4:25 AM

• • From: “C. Schramm”

• • Subject: AW: L?rssen Prototype and ‘Bremer Pionier’

• • Hello Martin and Barney,

• • I could not identify this craft. It seems to be a very early test vehicle from the 30s or a little later. I wonder, why test craft is related to Von Schertel and Supramar. It seems to be a craft with fully submerged foils, isn’t it ?

• • A chance to get more infos about it would be asking a guy, who is the curator of an small shipping museum near Hamburg (where I live). He has worked on some of the early hydrofoil projects in the 40s and the 50s (Maybe Sachsenburg). I have planned to visit him and his museum since a few years, but I never got the time for it. My holidays are beginning next week and so there will be time for visit. Perhaps he can identify this craft on the picture. The only other person should be Dr. Osterstehte (Author of the brochure I have sent you), but it is not easy to get in contact with him.

• • Due to some other interesting things I could locate in the darker edges of some harbors and also airfields I believe, that some of these prototypes and test vehicles should still exist unknown. Because no one ever had searched intensive for them these items chould remain there until it’s too late. I have gained the experience that shipyards (even if big or small) and harbor masters don’t like to throw away things, especially when they are rare and remarkable even like these test vehicles. So I am planning a mailing campaign to all German shipyards and the smaller harbors to detect things as described. I have written you about the small Ekranoplan I have found near Hamburg. There must be something more !

• • Is there existing a collection of hydrofoils like the British Hovercraft Museum in Gosport anywhere? What about building up one in the USA, where so much have been done for this technology ? Someone must save the remains, before they are scrapped ! Remember the horrible current state of the Plainview !

• • regards

• • C. Schramm

[Date/Time=07-04-2002 – 6:05 PM]

Name:C. Schramm c_schramm@t-online.de, [Msgid=278843]
Museums for Hydrofoils?

• • At 07:30 PM 7/3/02 +1000,

• • to: Christof, Barney, John, Tim…

• • The reply from Christof has struck a chord with me… there should be an internationally recognized hydrofoil museum!

• • This is one I have also thought about in the past but how can any progress be made with this idea?? It needs a lot of dedicated volunteer work and that has to be concentrated in one area. It has been possible for the hovercraft museum at Lee-on-Solent (near Gosport and Portsmouth) in the UK because that area has a concentration of people who have had a past involvement with hovercraft (Inter-Service Hovercraft Trials Unit, Hovertravel, British Hovercraft Corporation personnel etc) and hence volunteer their time to restore and preserve hovercraft. I wonder if there is a similar core of hydrofoil people anywhere in the world? The USA would seem to be about the only possibility.

• • Then there is the issue of administration and funding of such an effort:

• • As far as I know, the Hovercraft Museum Trust (see link below) was formed as a spin-off from the activities of The Hovercraft Society. Likewise, the American Helicopter Museum was sparked off by members of the American Helicopter Society as indicated in their website (see link below): “In 1993, as part of the planning for their 50th anniversary, the American Helicopter Society’s Philadelphia Chapter charged a committee with the task of “establishing a lasting tribute to those men and women who pioneered the development of rotary-wing aircraft in the Delaware Valley (the cradle of the American helicopter industry.)” From this vision grew a plan to create a permanent, independent museum. The Museum was incorporated in 1993. Under the leadership of founder Peter Wright, Jr. and a dedicated team of volunteers, membership, individual and industry support grew so rapidly that in 1996, the Museum opened to the public in former MBB Helicopter Plant hangar adjacent to the Brandywine Airport in West Chester, PA.”. I read recently that Frank Robinson, founder and president of the Robinson Helicopter Company had given a $1 million contribution to the museum. In the UK, there is an even larger dedicated helicopter museum (see the further link). Helicopters can be considered as a subset of aircraft just as hydrofoils are a subset of marine craft. I therefore use those museums as related examples of what has been done.

• • The question now seems to be:

• • 1. Would there be a sufficient concentration of hydrofoil devotees anywhere in the world prepared to establish and maintain a hydrofoil museum?

• • 2. Could financial support be expected from any of the companies that have had a past association with hydrofoils, such as Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Northrop-Grumman, Rodriquez, Alisafi SNAV, etc. Alternatively, would they consider assistance with donation of surplus hydrofoils (SNAV say), or in-kind support to restoration or preservation of craft developed by their companies (High Point, Plainview etc).

• • I would be interested in thoughts on this subject.

• • Regards,

• • Martin Grimm

• • Sites:

• • The Hovercraft Museum:

https://www.hover.globalinternet.co.uk/

• • American Helicopter Museum and Education Center, Pennsylvania, USA:

https://www.helicoptermuseum.org/

• • The Helicopter Museum, Weston-super-Mare, England

https://www.helicoptermuseum.co.uk/

[Date/Time=07-04-2002 – 6:08 PM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=278845]
Museums for Hydrofoils?

• • Subject: Re: Hydrofoil Museum

• • Martin, Barney

• • One important point should also be the potential of visitors in a area. A good place would an area with a lot of tourism activities arround.

• • Particulary in the USA states like Florida or Virginia should be of

• • interest, because their near to the “counstomers”. In Florida the all time weather brings a lot of tourism. A Museum should not only depend on sponsors but also on a regular income from the visitors. The Hovercraft Museum for example is mostly closed for the public, because they don’t have enough personal to provide a daily opening, although the theme of this museum is of interest for many people, as I could see at the “Hovershow” this year.

• • A Hydrofoilmuseum shlud be best located in one of the southern states of the USA, to have good weather conditions for a long period every year. In my oppinion it must combine a static show of items with some moving attractions.

• • – for example rides on very small hydrofoils (There are some on the

• • IHS-Site). A problem should be collecting items. They are mostly not easy to transport and are often not in a state, that should be presented to the

• • public without spending some work on it. But the most number of diverent types of hydrofoils are located in the USA. Also the runnings costs of this museums should be lower than in other countries, esp. in Europe, where working costs are higher.

• • I have always been impressed from the kind of preserving historical ships in the USA like the Battleship Alabama or the Freighter “Patrick Henry” by the work of some enthusiast. I believe taht there are enough retired US-Navy members, who would help to build up a museum. One item could be the preserved PHM …?

• • Regards

• • C. Schramm

[Date/Time=07-04-2002 – 6:18 PM]

Name:C. Schramm c_schramm@t-online.de, [Msgid=278846]
Happy Golden Anniversary Supramar

• • I have just realised that this year is the 50th anniversary of the formation of the hydrofoil design and development company Supramar AG based in Switzerland. The company was formed by hydrofoil pioneers Baron Hans von Schertel and Gotthard Sachsenberg who had already earlier in 1936/37 formed the Schertel-Sachsenberg Schnellboats-Konsortium (speed boat consortium).

• • Another significant milestone in the not too distant future will be the 50th anniversary of the date that PT 10 Freccia D’Oro (Golden Arrow) opened the first regular passenger service in the world. This service was started on 16 May 1953 on Lake Maggiore between Switzerland and Italy.

• • A bit further down the track, in 2005, we can celebrate the centenary of Enrico Forlanini conducting successful trials of his hydrofoil craft on that same lake. It would perhaps be a suitable gesture if IHS celebrated that event in some special way?

[Date/Time=07-05-2002 – 9:17 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=278959]
New Hydrofoil Video – Discovery

• • The new Discovery Canada video Hydrofoils: Flying on Water is available in VHS format for $29.95, including shipping and handling within the U.S. and Canada. IHS assisted in compiling historical photos and video clips for this production. More details and a description of the video are on the internet at

https://www.hydrofoil.ca/

• • . To purchase a copy of the VHS tape, send a cheque or money order to: Lucy Decoutere; 1657 Barrington St., Suite 138; Halifax, Nova Scotia; Canada B3J 2A1; Tel: 902.446.3414; Email:

lucy@thesea.ca

[Date/Time=07-22-2002 – 11:01 AM]

Name:Lou Duggan lou@thesea.ca, [Msgid=285147]
GORDON BAKER STORY

ViewThread

• • THE GORDON BAKER STORY (IN TWO DOWNLOAD PARTS WITH PHOTOS)

• • PART 1 ATTACHD

[Date/Time=08-02-2002 – 5:46 PM]

Name:Charles E. Thompson cethomstaug@aol.com, [Msgid=289706]
Attached File  “The Gordon Baker Story with photospart1~doc.zip” – size 353792   Click Here To Download
Gordon Baker Story

ViewThread

• • My name is Charles Thompson. –August 1, 2002

• • I served as Advertising-Publicity Manager at Baker Manufacturing Company in the mid 50’s, and was closely associated with Gordon Baker in promoting the MONITOR line of products, which included both water pumps and Baker hydrofoils.

• • ?

• • Update

• • GORDON BAKER STORY

• • The photo appearing on page 5 of the Gordon Baker Story shows Phil Roberts (an engineer who worked on both farm water systems and hydrofoil projects), and Neil Lien at the helm (who early on was hired as a water system engineer, but easily evolved into the hydrofoil project because of his sailing experience.) The photo was one of a series shot by Edwin Stein, a freelance photographer in Madison, WI, who had ties to a number of national publications. (Ed was later employed by Life Magazine after his popular photos of the Monitor appeared worldwide almost overnight).

• • The subject photo was captioned, The Flying Sailboat Monitor and is one in a series sent out with my press release, to a lengthy list of publications bearing a release date of “Tuesday Noon CST September 27, 1956.” Two weeks to the day from the time Gordon applied for the patent ? Hydrofoil Systems for Boats!

• • The flying sailboat was named after the company’s product brand name, MONITOR ? water systems, pump jacks and windmills. As Advertising-Publicity Manager, I had a great appreciation of the product brand name, MONITOR. The Monitor logo is silkscreened on the stern of the flying sailboat. The name was derived from the USS Monitor, which symbolized a watercraft. The Baker product line was clearly water related. Gordon and his brother (who died in a boating accident) were both sailing enthusiasts, whether on ice or water.

• • Having been an U. S. Air Force pilot, I coined the phrase (not original) the flying sailboat because the foils of both airplanes and waterfoils perform similar aerodynamic functions. The caption to the photos appealed to Gordon. However, Sports Illustrated called the Monitor a “water bug.”

• • Mr. Baker was adamant that both sides of the sail display, in large letters that could be read from a distance, the company name ? Baker Mfg. Co.– and — U S NAVY – to add some class and prestige to the Baker enterprise (and I think to infer a nautical link between its historical namesake, the USS Monitor, and the, new, modern United States Navy.)

• • The mail blitz was followed by news coverage on the national evening TV news program, ABC’s John Daly and the News which showed the MONITOR ripping across Lake Mendota in Madison, along with a live interview with Gordon.

• • John Broadwater, who manages the Monitor Marine Sanctuary off Cape Hatteras, NC, is quoted as saying, regarding the sunken USS Monitor, “This one little strange ship catapulted one almost laughable navy to world prominence.”* To paraphrase his quotation, “Another little strange flying sailboat catapulted the advancement of hydrofoils to world prominence.”

• • The USS Monitor’s crown jewel ? its revolving gun turret, is scheduled to be raised later this summer (2002), after sinking 140 years ago. And what is so ironic is that it will go to the Mariners’ Museum in Newport News, VA, which also houses Gordon’s 47 year old flying sailboat Monitor ? a fitting legacy.

• • The question remains, why would a proud native of the state of Wisconsin want to name their product line after something that resembles a”cheesebox on a raft?” **

• • I have preserved copies of several publications which featured the Monitor, including a reprint from the Milwaukee Journal, Armco Steel Corporation in-house publication and Electromet Review in-house publication, Sports Illustrated and Life magazine. Also, B/W glossy photos of myself with models in the 14′ Dunphy runabout as well as glossy photos of the Monitor.

• • Gordon Baker and his wife Betty had two daughters. Mary is married and lives in Delmar, CA and Ann just retired from the University of Wisconsin Physics Dept. in Madison and lives in the Madison area. Betty remarried and her husband’s name is Harry Roderick Jr.

• • * US News and World Report, July 29,2002, P.40,”Up from the Sea”

• • **To those not familiar, the State of Wisconsin once boasted to be the Cheese Capital of the World.

• • ?

[Date/Time=08-02-2002 – 9:35 PM]

Name:Charles Thompson cethomstaug@aol.com, [Msgid=289772]
Gordon Baker Story

• • Thank you for this most valuable posting. I have added it to the Gordon Baker story by Bob Johnston that appears on our website at

https://archive.foils.org/baker.htm

• • . I am particulary glad to be able to add the photo credit and date to the most famous

MONITOR

• • photo. Additional information about

MONITOR

• • is on our site at

https://archive.foils.org/monitor.htm

• • . In case you have not already found it, there is another page devoted to

MONITOR

• • on the web at

https://home-1.tiscali.nl/~hbsmits/monitor1.htm

• • . That page is created by Hanno Smit. According to Hanno, Neil Lien is working on a comprehensive article about

MONITOR

• • . Although we have not heard from Neil Lien in the last several months, his email address is

nlien@inwave.com

• • .

[Date/Time=08-03-2002 – 1:40 PM]

Name:Barney C. Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=289999]
Hydrodynamic Test Systems (HTS)

• • A description of the HTS (Hydrodynamic Test System) is contained in Boeing document D2-20438-1, written in 1964 with a revision by me in 1965. This document contains all the technical information you will ever want to know about the HTS. What is not in this document are the countless memories of the individuals who ran and supported the program during the early years of Boeing’s Advanced Marine System. A lot of these individuals have gone to the big hydrofoil convention in the sky, but there are still a few of us left who get together once in a while and amaze ourselves with what we accomplished in those early days in the name of marine research and development. The HTS was conceived by Wally Wieberg of Boeing, designed by P.F. Spaulding under contract in 1960 and built by Blanchard Boat Co. on Lake Union in 1961. The HST was launched and towed to Renton for outfitting in May of 1961 where the J-33 and all of the systems were installed. The first test run of the “Aqua Jet”, as it was called then, was in June of 1961. The HTS had been running a year before I joined the group in June of 1962. At that time the craft was limited in speed to about 50 knots due to instability problems and low thrust response due to excessive weight. Some low speed testing was accomplished and systems were debugged and improved but the goal of testing supercavitating model foils at speeds up to 80 knots was unachievable. One of my first jobs at Boeing was to fix “Wally’s Follies” as it was commonly referred to. It took me about a year to incorporate all the fixes, plus I replaced the J-33 with a J-48 to give our pregnant picklefork enough thrust. Now the boat was stable and we had plenty of excess thrust for high speed model tests and cable towing. Besides my engineering background I was a former boat builder and driver so I ended up as the HTS pilot or driver until it was phased out in the late 1960’s. A typical model foil test required smooth water. The only time the water was mirror smooth was early in the morning before any boats were on the lake to create wakes. Running a noisy jet on Lake Washington at 6:00 a.m. was a public relations nightmare. Every day that the HTS ran there were dozens of phone calls from irate individuals awakened by a jet engine blast. This was one of the reasons for the demise of the HTS, another being the Navy’s disinterest in supercavitating research and the need for high speed model testing. Also, subcavitating foil research and development was maturing, reducing the need for lower speed model tests. HTS was instrumental in the early towed cable testing but was limited to short lenghths of cable due to the available thrust and water depth of Lake Washington. As a young engineer working for Boeing Advanced Marine Systems in the 1960’s was an exciting and memorable experience. I feel that our efforts added a real contribution to the early research, development and testing of hydrofoils and other marine projects. For the record, the following brief description is given for those who are interested: Conceived: Wally Wieberg – Boeing Co., Seattle, WA Designer: Phillip Spaulding and Assoc., Seattle, WA Builder: Blanchard Boat Co., Seattle, WA Configuration: Three hard point hydroplane picklefork Materials: Oak frame, plywood sheeting with aluminum clad Mission: Model foil and towed cable systems testing Test Base: Renton, WA Test Course: Lake Washington, WA Crew: (3) Pilot, Test and Instrumentation Engineers Length: 38 feet Width: 17 feet Weight: 16,500 lbs. with crew and fuel Power: J-48 (6350 lbs. of thrust) Speed: 130 knots (max) Systems: Electrical – 400 amps 28v DC 115 v, 400 hz AC 28 v, 400 hz AC Fuel – 360 gals. JP-4 Hydraulics – 5.5 gpm, 1500 psl Model Support System – Hydraulic Sting and Balance Instrumentation System – Onboard Recording System Communication System – Intercom, Radios and Telemetry Photographic – Still and Hi Speed Movie Cameras

[Date/Time=08-10-2002 – 12:57 PM]

Name:Bruce Bryant bryant@silverlink.net, [Msgid=293978]
GORDON BAKER STORY

• • I’m Neil LIen, P.E. and would like to reply to my old friend Charlie Thompson, whom I haven’t seen in a long time.

• • First, the reason I was chosen to be in charge of the “Monitor” is that this hydrofoil sailboat was a fill-in project, and I was open. The design, layouts, and information on the rigid sail version had never been put together in an assembly layout. This became my first hydrofoil project. I had no sailing experience and learned sailing on the drafting board bringing this design together and by the many conferences with Gordon Baker, Bob Cannon, as well as the other engineeers who made the subassembly layouts and details. The first sailboat I ever sailed was the 16-foot hydrofoil experiemental sailboat after laying out and designing it with Mr. Baker and Bob Cannon.

• • I don’t recall Phil Roberts having any early experience with huydrofoils, although he accidentally proved one point: In sailing the 16″ hydrofoil sailboat he accidentally went downwind to turn around. We hollered and thought for sure he would get his head taken off with boom slap. This didn’t take place, as the speed of the boat was equal to or greater than the wind velocity. The boom slowly moved across. This proved a new phenomenon, when hydrofoil sailing it is possible to turn around by going downwind without any regard to the boom. This was a point no one had taken into account before.

• • The naming of the “Monitor” was done thru engineering as told by the story below written for a forthcoming article “Monitor” Hydrofoil Sailboat in Review” which I’m in the process of writing. I found an old dirty ozlid print of this sailboat and by darkening the lines and running it thru an electronic scanner and reducing it down to an 11×17 size I have a good print at this size. I’m not sure as yet if it can be reduced down any further to get good transmission quality.

• • The article is as excerpted below:

• • “The Naming of the “Monitor”

• • Once the boat was completed, a name had to be picked. No fitting name following the other hydrofoil boats was “High Pockets”, “High Tail” or “High Lander” seemed to fit.

• • Baker Mfg. Co. had been one of the top three manufacturers of “Windmills Which Won the West” pumping water for the sustenance of life versus the”Winchester rifle” which shot it. The trade name for this Windmill was the “Monitor”. Even though Allen S. Baker, one of the founder of Baker Mfg. Co., was a Civil War veteran and admired the design of the Monitor battleship, the trademark “Monitor” was chosen, as all windmills monitor the wind velocity and regulate the rate at which water is pumped. There are several concepts of these regulators used in windmills. The moment solver on this particular hydrofoil sailboat monitors the change in wind velocity and adjusts the lift on the rear foil to keep the boat from porpoising. Gordon Baker finally consented reluctantly to let us name the boat “Monitor”. It had nothing to do with the sea battle between the Monitor and Merrimac battleships as has been written in one book on hydrofoil sailboats. It was strictly based on engineering logic.

[Date/Time=08-18-2002 – 12:31 PM]

Name:Neil Lien nlien@inwave.com, [Msgid=297576]
GORDON BAKER STORY

• • Neil

• • Thanks for the interesting tale about the naming of the hydrofoil Monitor. I would never have made that connection. Let us know when you finish your article so we can all see the rest of the story

• • Bill White

• • IHS BBD Moderator

[Date/Time=08-18-2002 – 10:09 PM]

Name:Bill White whitewn@speakeasy.net, [Msgid=297754]
Historical Market for Hydrofoil Boats

ViewThread

• • Has the hydrofoil concept never been any success within the market sector of smaller to midsize of boats (23 ? 35 ft)?

[Date/Time=10-15-2002 – 7:21 PM]

Name:Tomas J?rnmark Tomas.Jarnmark@electrum.se, [Msgid=324190]
Bras D`Or Propulsion Question

ViewThread

• • Only recently I visited the Maritime Bernier Museum, and it was closed at the time. I visited the exterior of the ship “le Bras d’Or”. The only information that I lack is “what type of motors drove the propellers?” the two uppers and the two lower motors? Why supercavitating propellers for the two lower ones?

[Date/Time=10-20-2002 – 8:06 AM]

Name:J. P. Carole jpcarole@aol.com, [Msgid=326108]
Bras D`Or Propulsion Question

• • A source of information about Bras D’Or is Thomas G. Lynch’s Book

The Flying 400: Canada’s Hydrofoil Project

• • . According to this book, the fixed-pitch supercavitating lower props were driven by an FT4A-2 gas turbine engine purchased from United Aircraft of Canada. The 48″ diameter props were developed jointly by DeHavilland and the Ship Division of the National Physical Laboratory London, and were manufactured by Ladish company of Milwaukee of Inconel 718 stainless steel. The foilborne gearbox was built by GE. The hullborne propusion system was powered by a Paxman Ventura 16YJM diesel engine.

[Date/Time=10-20-2002 – 8:21 AM]

Name:Barney C. Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=326110]
Historical Market for Hydrofoil Boats

• • Very good point Tomas,have have asked many similar questions and found good answers.Like boat maufactures make wet mono hull boats to sell, not be efficient or ride well. I live on the Gulf coast of Florida and have been boating since i was a boy.When i go out in the Gulf and it takes 1 hour to go 12 miles in 2’waves i ask the question over and over.Or when i drive across a long bridge to Tampa for work purposes and traffic stops and i look at the water next to me and ask the question again.Why isn’t there more foils,is all $$$?? or is there something else??? Let me Know what you think Matt

[Date/Time=10-23-2002 – 10:55 PM]

Name:Matt Kirk matric39@gte.net, [Msgid=327988]
Historical Market for Hydrofoil Boats

• • Thomas

• • There are good economical reasons why small hydrofoils especially water propelled types have remained mostly a curiosity. For small speed superiority better ride they have usually cost at least two to three times as much as comparable planing monohulls.

• • The added cost of the Hydrofoils is actually the smallest added cost.

• • To that you have to add the Foils control system. This includes the: foils lift/Trim/Roll control mechanisms, boat attitude and motion sensors, and a controller feedback computer (even if it a simple analog device).

• • The foil stowing/deployment system.

• • Finally, the Propulsion system becomes very complicated and inefficient because it has to operate in two modes (Hullborne and Foilborne). Propeller driven systems often have 30 t0 45 degree shaft angles. These angles can reduce efficiency by 50% from conventional boats. as a result, Waterjet pump propulsors are often used with waterjet inlets that tunnel the water up to the pumps in the hulls. This simplifies the mechanical installation. However, there are large losses in dusting the water up the inlets into the pumps and additional losses in the pumps themselves compared to propellers. The net result is about the same 50% reduction in efficiency as the alternative propeller system.

• • As a result of all these added systems, Hydrofoils cost twice as much as planing hulls and their inefficient propulsion systems completely wiped out the high effiency of the Hydrofoils themselves. A double whammy.

• • The proof of this can be seen in the renewed interest we are seeing in sailing hydrofoils. Using sails for propulsion is equally efficient for Hydrofoil sailboats and Monohull sailboats. Thus sailing Hydrofoils only have to overcome the extra complexity of the foils and their control system. As you can see by the new sailing Hydrofoils, technology advances in the last 15 years in Materials (like high strength composites, hydraulics, computer chips, computer design software, micro sensors, etc) have reduced the cost and increased the performance of the foil systems themselves.

• • Similar advances in electric drive propulsion systems will hopefully make major improvements to water propelled hydrofoils shortly. See the web site of the Solomon Technologie’s Electric Wheel at url

https://www.solomontechnologies.com/home.htm

• • This integrated electric drive is compact enough to be mounted down in the foil and eliminates all the effiecincy losses of the older inclined shafts and propellers or hull mounted waterjets. The technology was developed by the US Navy and NASA in the 1980’s and the technology is a prime candidate for all future Navy ships.

• • So the future looks bright for efficient high performance water propelled hydrofoils, if someone marries all the newly available technology advances together. My guess it will happen in larger sizes first, then be adapted to smaller boats. However, if anyone has a spare $200,000 I would love to design and build a prototype today.

[Date/Time=11-04-2002 – 7:56 PM]

Name:Bill White whitewn@speakeasy.net, [Msgid=333478]
Historical Market for Hydrofoil Boats

• • Yes, The VOLGA 70.

[Date/Time=11-05-2002 – 12:13 AM]

Name:Harry Larsen hlarsen0@gte.net, [Msgid=333585]
Where is the Disco Volante

ViewThread

• • I’m trying to find out if the FLYING FISH / DISCO VOLANTE from the James Bond film Thunderball still exists. I’ve gotten a lot of help from folks around Miami but can’t track her farther than the Allied boat yard “around” 1991. My partner and I are beginning to fear that she was broken up for scrap in the early 90’s, but can’t get any confirmation of that either. If she could be found, in any condition, we would seriously consider a purchase and restoration project (I’ve resurrected some large boats in pretty sad shape). Any aid you might be able to provide would be greatly appreciated, e-mail or call any time, +1-305-395-1999 cellular always on.

[Date/Time=11-22-2002 – 4:27 AM]

Name:Mark A. Burris BurrisLM@aol.com, [Msgid=341785]
Where is the Disco Volante

• • There are lots of references to the Disco Volante with the IHS Web site at

https://foils.org

• • Just use the search engine on the Home page to find them.

• • Sorry no one has offered a recent update on her existance or location.

• • However, there is a great deal of information about her history.

[Date/Time=11-23-2002 – 6:21 PM]

Name:Bill White whitewn@flash.net, [Msgid=342522]
[i]USS ARIES[/i] Memorial NL

• • This is a PHM update but can also be called the first

USS ARIES

• • Hydrofoil Memorial Newsletter.

• • The

USS ARIES

• • Hydrofoil Memorial inc. is finally officially open for business. The memorial has received it’s 501(c)(3) tax exempt status from the IRS and can now accept tax deductible donations. An overview of the project can be found at our web site,

https://www.ussaries.org

• • .

• • We opened for tours the weekend of Oct. 4th 2002 during the Brunswick, MO Pecan festival. We had in excess of 130 visitors that weekend and consider it a great success. Especially since we did very little advertising and the ship was several blocks from the main street where the festival was being held.

• • Diana James is the President of the Memorial and was mainly responsible in getting the whole thing off the ground, the tax exempt status was no easy task but with the help of the Historic Naval Ship Association’s Channing Zucker and Kurt Wagemann with the

USS FOREST SHERMAN

• • project, Diana managed to get the task accomplished.

• • Our emphasis for the past few years has been in making the ship ready to cruise, and the cosmetics suffered. Opening for tours was just what we needed to redirect our priorities to cleaning and tidying the ship up. She is now as clean and dry as when the Navy sold her and a lot neater. We removed “de-mil’ed” equipment and put covers on most boxes and empty panel openings.

• • We added two staircases, one down the gun turret opening where the tour starts, and one down the aft of the 01 deck behind the bridge where the tour of the inside of the ship ends. This vastly increases the accessibility of the ship to visitors.

• • One thing the ship really needs is painting. We are looking for a source for paint, and would like to know what color the ship should be, i.e. dove gray, haze gray, etc.

• • We are also looking for mattresses for the crew bunks. We want to be

• • able to offer overnight programs, and have already had inquiries from one Boy Scout troop and need mattresses and hopefully mattress covers to make that happen.

• • Since Brunswick is such a small town, we know that the traditional

• • approach of being open 6 days a week from 9 to 5 just won’t be feasible with our memorial. We will be instead organizing tours by reservation along with being open for walk-in business 2 days a week during good weather. This approach gives us more flexibility such as staying open much later on what ever days that work for groups of 10 people or more. Schools, children’s homes, scout troops, retirement centers or any groups that want to organize a tour will have the ability to set the time and day that works best for them.

• • We have nearly finished the documentation requirements for the Coast

• • Guard including admeasument by ABS which issued an International Tonnage Certificate showing us to have 288 gross tonnage and 86 net tonnage. This was the last requirement before we made application to the USCG for recreational documentation. With this documentation, we can operate as a private vessel without the manning requirements of a coastwise trade vessel, but as long as we are anchored, moored, or docked, we can give tours and not be considered “carrying passengers or cargo for hire”. We had to go all the way to the US Customs Department for a definitive answer on that issue.

• • As soon as we have reliable systems restored for cruising (some of the systems that got us home were temporary and others not reliable enough) we will be heading south in search of waterfront festivities where we can offer tours. We are very interested in volunteers that may want to spend some time cruising with us, working on fixing the ship up, and sharing the knowledge they have of hydrofoils with tourists and young potential hydrofoilers. If all goes right, we would like to end up in the Keys where we could host a PHM Reunion. If anyone has any ideas,such as what waterfront festivities we should attend, or how we could secure dockage in Key West or anywhere for that matter, tours or the reunion, please don’t hesitate to contact us.

• • We are attempting to secure more spare parts, especially of critical or one-of-a-kind items exclusive to these ships. We are in need of

• • information about the cost of construction of any of these systems. For example, the foilborne gearbox, proplusor assembly, or hydraulic

• • actuation cylinders or the hullborne propulsors. A potential donor of

• • those parts has to be able to document their value. If anyone knows what some of that equipment cost, from documentation or memory, please let us know.

• • The final obstacle to overcome is achieving status as an eligible donee for state surplus property. This status will allow us to acquire

• • equipment that we could not possibly hope to be able to acquire without significant cash donations. As I understand it, equipment that is surplus to the needs of the DOD that would be of benefit to our memorial, such as lifeboats, maintenance equipment, LM2500s… is

• • distributed by the GSA to SASP (State Association for Surplus Property), in Missouri that is Missouri State Agency for Surplus Property. Application to that state office has to be approved for eligible donee status. There in lies our problem. We filled out the application, where we meet all written requirements, but we were rejected on the basis of not listing enough open hours. In talking with the rep for the Missouri SASP she informed me that we had to be open in excess of 1000 hours per year. I don’t doubt that we will be open at least that many hours which ends up at about 2 days a week, but evidently they are not comfortable unless we declare the specific hours we will be open. Given our approach of being flexible it is not really feasible to open the doors 2 or more days a week when we know there will not be enough traffic to even pay the electric bill. But we also know that without the eligible donee status, we won’t be able to afford the equipment necessary to maintain the vessel, let alone make her operational. Is there another way to procure equipment that is excess to DRMO without going through the state office? Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

[Date/Time=11-27-2002 – 4:17 AM]

Name:Eliot James esjames@cvalley.net, [Msgid=344092]
Sea Wing history?

ViewThread

• • I’ve seen the picture of the passenger h/f Sea Wing in the Post Card section but have been unable to find much further information.

• • USCG register has her listed as built 1965 and last inspected 1990 in New York. I believe she was used as a spare vessel by TNT Hydrolines in the late 80ies.

• • Is there anybody who can give a short summary of her history? Especially who built her, who operated her and where did she end up?

• • /Eje

[Date/Time=12-11-2002 – 5:19 AM]

Name:Eje Flodstrom eje_flodstrom@yahoo.com, [Msgid=349689]
Sea Wing history?

• • Eje,

• • My 1968-69 and 69-70 issue of Jane’s Surface Skimmer Systems helps to shed some light on your question. The hydrofoil was apparently designed and built by the Ordnance Engineering Division of the FMC Corporation headquartered in San Jose, California. The specific hydrofoil type is the L548D. The description of that type indicates the hydrofoil was “designed for fast, comfortable services across bays, lakes and sounds”. The prototype has logged over 3500 miles during engineering tests in San Fransisco Bay. Seating was for 48 passengers. Maximum operating displacement was 14.29 tons, useful load being 4.33 tons. CDesign cruising speed was 41 mph. Powerplants were twin Cummins VT8-390M Diesels rated at 390 hp each. The company also produced a similar but smaller 12 passenger hydrofoil demonstraion craft.

• • I don’t know any more about who operated the craft, how many of the type were built or what became of it / them.

[Date/Time=12-12-2002 – 5:24 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=350180]
Sea Wing history?

• • Thanks Martin!

• • Last night I noticed the similarities between Sea Wing and the FMCHY craft in the 1950s section of the photo gallery, so I nearly had it figured out. Could that be the 12-seater? Funny though, the 1972-73 Jane’s doesn’t mention the FMC craft at all except for the LVHX-2 in a separate Military Hydrofoils paper submitted by Supramar.

[Date/Time=12-12-2002 – 3:31 PM]

Name:Eje Flodstrom eje_flodstrom@yahoo.com, [Msgid=350439]
Sea Wing history?

• • Eje,

• • Yes, the craft you spotted in the photo gallery is the L312G 12 seater I described. Food Machinery Company / Corporation still exists today but is simply known by the name FMC. They still manufacture military equipment but they must have dropped out of the hydrofoil business in the early 70’s. This is not unusual. For example, not even the earliest issue of Jane’s Surface Skimmer Systems (1967-68) lists the Aquavion company that was based in the Netherlands. They built a fair number of hydrofoils but must have disappeared before ’67. Another hydrofoil builder in Italy, Seaflight SpA, was established in about 1961 but had disappeared from the scene by the 80’s.

[Date/Time=12-15-2002 – 1:25 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=351469]
3 inch Chord

• • Would like to find 3″chord NACA 16-008 and 16-510

[Date/Time=12-19-2002 – 9:25 PM]

Name:Matt Kirk matric39@gte.net, [Msgid=353684]
Jetfoils Relationship to Chinese PS30

ViewThread

• • We are researching the history and current set up of the Boeing Jetfoils and any relationship with the PS30.

• • 1. Were the PS30 Hydrofoils built in China (Balsa and Praia) in 1994 and 1995 designed by Boeing and built under a licence agreement? Every time we have discussed this with naval architects they all say they are Boeing designed and licensed to the Shanghai-based builder Qiuxin Shipyard. Their website images seem remarkably similar to the Boeing Jetfoils in appearance and specifications, however they make no reference to Boeing.

• • 2. In 1987 Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd acquired a licence to build Boeing Jetfoil 929-117. Was this an exclusive licence only for this model? They reported selling two of these to Spain, Princess Dacil (1990) and Princess Teguise (1991), and Kawasaki reports building a Jetfoil 929-115 Venus 2 in 1985.

• • 3. Does Kawasaki have a licence to build other Jetfoil designs than the 929-117?

• • 4. Boeing does not report building any Jetfoils themselves after 1981. Does Boeing still manufacture the components and maintain the designs for the components for the vessels running around the world, particularly the large fleet of Far East Hydrofoil in Hong Kong?

[Date/Time=01-27-2003 – 8:17 PM]

Name:Neil Howe Neil@beurteaux.com, [Msgid=368023]
Re; Jetfoils Relationship to Chinese PS30

• • Response to these questions:

• • 1. (Were the PS30 Hydrofoils built in China (Balsa and Praia) in 1994 and 1995 designed by Boeing and built under a licence agreement?) They were not specifically designed by Boeing Marine Systems. Boeing Marine Systems did not exist as a design organization at the time they were built.

• • 3. (Does Kawasaki have a licence to build other Jetfoil designs than the 929-117?) There were earlier models of the Jetfoil-117 and several special purpose variants of the 115/117 model. I am not aware of any other Jetfoil designs to license.

• • 4. (Boeing does ! not report building any Jetfoils themselves after 1981. Does Boeing still manufacture the components and maintain the designs for the components for the vessels running around the world, particularly the large fleet of Far East Hydrofoil in Hong Kong?) No

• • Harry Larsen

[Date/Time=01-28-2003 – 9:06 PM]

Name:Harry Larsen hlarsen0@gte.net, [Msgid=368659]
Re; Jetfoils Relationship to Chinese PS30

• • That is a very good set of questions. When I first saw a photo of the PS30 in FFI quite some years ago, I was struck by its similarity to Jetfoil. A quick look through the IHS Newsletter index reveals that we had an extract of the Fast Ferry International December 1994 item “First Chinese Built Jetfoil Joins Far East Fleet” in the Spring 1995 NL. The item stated: “A hydrofoil fast ferry developed and built in China is now in service with Hong Kong Far East Hydrofoil Co Ltd…”. The craft name was ‘North Star’. Editor’s note by Bob Johnston was: “One can readily see the resemblance of North Star to the JETFOIL.”

[Date/Time=02-02-2003 – 11:51 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=371013]
Re; Jetfoils Relationship to Chinese PS30

• • I worked the PHM Program for many years at the US Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA). To my knowledge, Boeing Marine Systems disbanded about 10 years ago and does not manufacture components for Jetfoils. I’m not sure whether they might maintain any of the design information in their archives. It might be a good idea to contact Boeing via their website and make an inquiry.

[Date/Time=02-02-2003 – 11:54 AM]

Name:Mark Bebar markbebar@juno.com, [Msgid=371016]
Re; Jetfoils Relationship to Chinese PS30

• • Off hand I don’t know if any IHS members worked on the Jetfoil program, though we have several members who worked on Boeing’s PHM program, either as Navy or Boeing employees or in other connections.

• • Other possible sources of information on Jetfoils include

Fast Ferry International

• • and

Classic Fast Ferries

• • . There are links to both on the IHS links page at

https://archive.foils.org/linksout.htm

• • I note in the 1993-94 edition of

Jane’s High Speed Marine Craft

• • that Kawasaki had built or was building fifteen Jetfoils under license, all 929-117. This book goes only to 1994, so I cannot say anything about Venus 2. The first Venus was built in 1991 according to Jane’s.

• • Finally, I reproduce below a posting in the IHS email archives that suggests a point of contact at China State Shipbuilding… I don’t know if the email address is still good after all these years, but it could lead to an entry point for information about Chinese hydrofoils.

• • [10 Nov 97] I contacted China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC) that is the state owned enterprise and controls the most of shipbuilding industry in China, including shipbuilding, engines and ship equipments. Under CSSC there are a number of diesel factories for marine use. Among those, there are two factories manufacturing high speed diesel engines for high speed crafts and hydrofoils. They are Luoyang Diesel Factory and Sichuan Diesel Factory. Luoyang Diesel Factory is in Luoyang, Henan Province. It manufactures 12V180 diesel, 1200 HP and MWM diesel 400-1000 HP. They have the license of manufacturing MWM. Sichuan Diesel Factory is in Sichuan Province. They have the license to manufacture STYER diesel about 1000 HP. If you need detail information, please let me know the items. CSSC promised to offer the information. — Shi-Tang Dong, Professor in Ship Hydrodynamics (

stdong@online.sh.cn

• • )

[Date/Time=02-02-2003 – 11:59 AM]

Name:Barney C Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=371019]
Re; Jetfoils Relationship to Chinese PS30

• • The following website offers a production PS-30 Hydrofoil from China:

https://www.sentex.net/~sxing/ps30_high_speed_passenger_ferry.htm

[Date/Time=02-02-2003 – 1:23 PM]

Name:Barry Steele barry_steele@yahoo.com, [Msgid=371058]
Re; Jetfoils vis a vis Chinese PS30

• • 1. The two hydrofoils built in Chins, the Balsa and the Praia, were built by the China State Shipbuilding Corp at the QuiXin shipyard without benefit of licensing agreement by Boeing. They were designed by CSSRC and a Naval Architecture Inst at Wuhon (possibly based on the Boeing design and reversed engineered). They did not have retractable aft struts.

• • 2. Boeing did sell exclusive rights for the jetfoil to Kawasaki and PT Pal and as far as anyone knows , they were the only ones that had the licenses. I thought that Kawasaki only built two or three boats but apparently they built about eleven with two going to the Canary Islands and the rest were sold to some Japanese outfits.

• • 3. Along with the Licensing agreement with Kawasaki, they got exclusive rights to provide support and spare parts to the fleet. However, FEH (Far East Hydrofoils) does make some of their own spares and all of the electronics for their boats.

[Date/Time=02-07-2003 – 8:25 AM]

Name:Phil Janosik janosik1@tx3.com, [Msgid=373847]
Niel Lein, Monitor, and Baker Mfg Co,

• • For Barney Black,

• • I just saw Niel Lein in Daytona and am planning to see him again on

• • Friday. Niel is very interested in writing a book:

• • He has collected and scanned all the Monitor drawings and photos, and has lots of technical information on the early sailing foiler, Monitor as well as the powered Baker foilers- HiPockets etc., the outboard skiff kits and the foiled landing craft with the Secretary of the Navy on board. I had never read the Baker patents which he has. He also has videotape of ALL of the above, converted from 8 mm film that is VERY good. There is an amazing wealth of material, all soundly engineering based. I was very impressed with his photos, thoroughness, and that of other the engineers who did this work. There really should be an hour’s documentary made of this, like for the Discovery series, to utilize the excellent action video of the small foiler- (sailing to weather!), Monitor sailing and all of the other powered foilers as described above in action. Ther shoulds be a resource to do this. Suggestions? I am thinking of helping Niel with this effort, as he doesn’t type!

[Date/Time=02-25-2003 – 9:50 AM]

Name:Dave Carlson afn18791@afn.org, [Msgid=384530]
LITTLE SQUIRT Gas Turbine Engine

• • In the message archives at

https://archive.foils.org/engine.htm

• • there is a question about the 425 hp Gas Turbine Engine (GTE) used in

LITTLE SQUIRT

• • . Boeing made these engines (T50BO-12, also T50BO-10 and T50BO-8). I have a few of them and have used them in my boat.

[Date/Time=02-26-2003 – 7:40 PM]

Name:Tim Pratt timp%@compatiblecomputers.com, [Msgid=385543]
VolgeVingen Restoration

• • VolgenVingen traveled 40 Kms on a new trailer, paint still wet, to arrive at the Stockhom boat show at the last minute.

[Date/Time=02-28-2003 – 7:05 PM]

Name:Jan Wennerstrom jan.wennerstrom@bredband.net, [Msgid=386807]
In Memory of Ray Wright

• • With regrets I must inform the hydrofoil community that I received the message this morning from Ed Hermanns, that our colleague of many years, Ray Wright, passed away last week. To those who never met him, Ray was the Chief Hydrodynamicist at Grumman up until his retirement. As such he was always a key member of the hydrofoil development team at Grumman. Ray was a quiet man, dedicated to his faith in God and science. He was a true gentleman, and dedicated his professional career to the science of hydrofoil hydrodynamics. Few in this small field, knew as much about the subject as Ray, yet he was always willing to teach and discuss. He was deeply respected by his peers. I personally learned much from him about the field of hydrodynamics and life. It may come as a surprise to many to learn that while trained in aerodynamics, he had a very deep distrust of any airplane enclosing him that was not firmly planted on the ground. Those wishing to express condolences, may write his wife, Myra; contact me directly for the address.

[Date/Time=03-07-2003 – 5:02 AM]

Name:Charlie Pieroth SoundTM@ix.netcom.com, [Msgid=390899]
A Hydrofoil Museum is Proposed

ViewThread

• • There should be an internationally recognised hydrofoil museum! But how can any progress be made with this idea?? It needs a lot of dedicated volunteer work and that has to be concentrated in one area. It has been possible for the hovercraft museum at Lee-on-Solent(near Gosport and Portsmouth)in the UK because that area has a concentration of people who have had a past involvement with hovercraft (Inter-Service Hovercraft Trials Unit, Hovertravel, British Hovercraft Corporation personnel etc.) and hence volunteer their time to restore and perserve hovercraft. I wonder if there is a similar core of hydrofoil people anywhere in the world? The USA would seem to be about the only possibility.

• • Then there is the issue of administration and funding of such an effort:

• • As far as I know, the Hovercraft Museum Trust (see link below) was formed as a spin-off from the activities of The Hovercraft Society. Likewise, the American Helicopter Museum was sparked off by members of the American Helicopter Society as indicated in their website (see link below): “In 1993, as part of the planning for their 50th anniversary, the American Helicopter Society’s Philadelphia Chapter charged a committee with the task of “establishing a lasting tribute to those men and women who pioneered the development of rotary-wing aircraft in the Delaware Valley (the cradle of the American helicopter industry.)” From this vision grew a plan to create a permanent, independent museum. The Museum was incorporated in 1993. Under the leadership of founder Peter Wright, Jr. and a dedicated team of volunteers, membership, individual and industry support grew so rapidly that in 1996, the Museum opened to the public in former MBB Helicopter Plant hangar adjacent to the Brandywine Airport in West Chester, PA.”. I read recently that Frank Robinson, founder and president of the Robinson Helicopter Company had given a $1 million contribution to the museum. In the UK, there is an even larger dedicated helicopter museum see the further link). Helicopters can be considered as a subset of aircraft just as hydrofoils are a subset of marine craft. I therefore use those museums as related examples of what has been done.

• • The question now seems to be:

• • 1. Would there be a sufficient concentration of hydrofoil devotees anywhere in the world prepared to establish and maintain a hydrofoil museum?

• • 2. Could financial support be expected from any of the companies that have had a past association with hydrofoils, such as Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, Northrop-Grumman, Rodriquez, Alisafi SNAV, etc.? Alternatively, would they consider assistance with donation of surplus hydrofoils (SNAV say), or in-kind support to restoration or preservation of craft developed by their companies (High Point, Plainview. etc).

• • I would be interested in thoughts on this subject.

• • Links:

• • The Hovercraft Museum:

https://www.hover.globalinternet.co.uk/

• • American Helicopter Museum and Education Center, Pennsylvania, USA:

https://www.helicoptermuseum.org/

• • The Helicopter Museum, Weston-super-Mare, England

https://www.helicoptermuseum.co.uk/
[Date/Time=03-24-2003 – 8:03 PM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=402303]
Re; A Hydrofoil Museum is Proposed

• • One important point is the potential of visitors in a area. A good place would be an area with a lot of tourism activities. Particularly in the USA, states like Florida or Virginia should be of interest, because they are near to the “customers”. In Florida the good weather brings a lot of tourism.

• • A Museum should not only depend on sponsors but also on a regular income from the visitors. The Hovercraft Museum for example is mostly closed for the public, because they don’t have enough personnel to provide a daily opening, although the theme of this museum is of interest for many people, as I could see at the “Hovershow” this year.

• • A Hydrofoil museum should best be located in one of the southern states of the USA, to have good weather conditions for a long period every year. In my opinion it must combine a static show of items with some moving attractions – for example rides on very small hydrofoils (There are some on the IHS-Site). A problem would be collecting items. They are mostly not easy to transport and are often not in a condition, that could be presented to the public without spending some work on it. But the most number of diverent types of hydrofoils are located in the USA. Also the operating costs of the museum should be lower in the USA than in other countries, esp. in Europe, where labor costs are higher.

• • I have always been impressed by the preservation of historical

• • ships in the USA like the Battleship Alabama or the Freighter “Patrick Henry” by the work of enthusiasts. I believe that there are enough retired US-Navy members, who would help to build up a museum. One item could be the preserved PHM …?

[Date/Time=03-24-2003 – 8:10 PM]

Name:C. Schramm c_schramm@t-online.de, [Msgid=402309]
Re; A Hydrofoil Museum is Proposed

• • This is something I’d like to work on in my retirement. Agree with having it in the southern USA, and there is an ideal location in Charleston where the carrier Yorktown is moored as a museum ship – lots of area for expansion, parking, and there is an excellent store that sells Naval memorabilia.

[Date/Time=03-24-2003 – 8:12 PM]

Name:Mark Bebar markbebar@juno.com, [Msgid=402310]
Wendels Schnellschiff

• • I visited the German Shipping Museum in Bremerhaven, where the

• • “Wendels Schnellschiff” is located. It was not possible to take a look

• • inside, but I found printed material about this and other crafts built in Germany. I found a description of the “Wendels Schnellschiff” with the remark that this craft was stabilized manually! That means, it had to be flown thruough the water like an airplane. There are no sensors installed, like in the modern hydrofoils. It seems, that the invention of well running stabilization systems was done only later, in America. The majority of German-developed hydrofoils have got a V-shaped foil system.

[Date/Time=03-24-2003 – 8:37 PM]

Name:C. Schramm c_schramm@t-online.de, [Msgid=402327]
hydrofoil museum

ViewThread

• • With reference to recent messages from Martin Grimm, C.Schramm and Mark Bebar on this subject. The IHS Board has, for two or three years, been promoting the concept of a traveling hydrofoil exhibit, initially (unsuccessfully to date) with the Smithsonian Traveling Exhibition Service. There are over one hundred Maritime museums in the US alone (probably 25 “major” US maritime museums). Clearly there would be many international maritime museums with interest in such an exhibit. Martin Grimm has recently found that a hydrofoil exhibit was mounted in 1997 at a museum in Rostok, where many models were displayed. It is intended to obtain more information on the current location of these models. The Alexander Graham Bell museum in Nova Scotia features the hydrofoil work of AGB. The Mariners Museum in Newport News has the original Gibbs and Cox Sea Legs. A permanent “museum” or section of an existing maritime museum for hydrofoils could be most attractive – this would not preclude a traveling show (which could be affordable, with photos, videos etc). A sponsor ($$$) is required, perhaps a museum. It is unlikely that there is, at this time a realistic industrial candidate in the US. It has been proposed that the IHS Board continue to pursue this area.

[Date/Time=03-25-2003 – 11:44 AM]

Name:Ken Spaulding, IHS Secretary kboyd@erols.com, [Msgid=402670]
Re; hydrofoil museum

• • We have been working on getting the USS Aries Hydrofoil Memorial up and running for what seems like a very long time. We have the nonprofit corp. formed, and have 501c3 tax exempt status which anyone who has attempted it will tell you is quite a feat. We opened our doors for the first time last Oct. We have the Aries in pretty decent shape considering and she is less than $10,000+ a couple hundred man-hours from being mobile. We have the Coast Guard certificate of documentation to operate under a recreational certificate (we don’t have manning or inspection requirements) and are legal to operate as an “Attraction Vessel”. Which means we can have people pay to come aboard (passengers for hire) while tied to a dock. We knew from the onset that we would have to travel since there is no way Brunswick, MO will support such a museum. Our goal, is to spend the winter months traveling. Boat shows, waterfront festivities, anywhere we could attract visitors. Just as long as it is WARM. The ship is dock in Brunswick, MO for two reasons, one, it is as close to the house as we could get it, two, it is the cheapest place we could find. If we could find better dockage elsewhere we would be there! We would love to be part of a larger organization, or the basis for one as long as it shared our goals. Check out our web site

www.ussaries.org

• • , it has only 2 pages but gives a good idea what we are trying to accomplish. What sounds very close to what everyone here has been talking about.

[Date/Time=03-25-2003 – 6:26 PM]

Name:Eliot James esjames@cvalley.net, [Msgid=402944]
Thoughts on a Hydrofoil Museum

ViewThread

• • As the owner of the H/V Albatross, I was heartened by the recent messages regarding the creation of a hydrofoil museum. Several attempts have been made by me through the years to find a museum or foundation interested in accepting the Albatross. So far I have been turned down by both the Smithsonian and the Mariner’s Museum in Newport News. No replies were ever received from the South Street Seaport in New York or the Maritime Museum in Fall River, Mass. Recently my offer (made on the IHS message board)to donate Albatross to any interested organization was without success. As for a site for a proposed museum, I would like to offer the following thoughts:

• • – South Street Seaport, close to the sight of the first commercial hydrofoil sight in America.

• • – West Chester, PA approximately 23 of the Albatross’s sister ships were built there.

• • – Mariner’s Museum, Newport News. The hydrofoil Sealegs is already there.

• • – Patriot’s Point, Charleston, SC Great area. Navy hydrofoil fleet was stationed at the nearby Navy Yard. Don’t know if any are left.

• • – Fort Schuyler, Bronx, NY, site of the New York State Maritime College. Has existing maritime museum in old harbor defense fort.

• • – King’s Point, NY. Home of the U.S. Merchant Marime Academy (former Walter P. Chrysler mansion)- marine museum on site. Long Island has a long history of hydrofoil research and development.

• • – Smithsonian. Draws many tourists. Albatross made demonstration runs on the Potomac before being taken to NYC.

[Date/Time=03-26-2003 – 8:59 AM]

Name:Robert Miller cbbi@aol.com, [Msgid=403346]
Re; Thoughts on a Hydrofoil Museum

ViewThread

• • I am of the opinion that unless you can be there in about 30 minutes from home, a museum might as well be in the area you would most like to visit. Some place you go to and think “If I could just make a living here, I’d move!”

• • We spent 4 months in Charleston, SC at the old Navy shipyard working on the Aries. Nice area, with lot of potential. But it’s not Key West. There is an active naval base in the Keys, as well as a lot of park area that was formerly Truman annex. A lot of hydrofoil history was made there. It is also a place you can visit in August without burning up thanks to the tropical breeze and the winters are as nice as you can get and still be in the states. From St.Louis, I can be in Key West in 4hr.13 min with one stop for $443 round trip, I can be in Charleston in 4hr.10 min with one stop for $546 round trip.

[Date/Time=03-26-2003 – 10:03 AM]

Name:Eliot James esjames@cvalley.net, [Msgid=403376]
re; Museum

• • Isnt the only operational PHM in St. Louis? (hullborne anyway)

https://corpsdriver.home.attbi.com/hydrofoils.htm
[Date/Time=03-28-2003 – 12:23 AM]

Name:J Hahn corpsdriver@attbi.com, [Msgid=404711]
Hydrofoil Size

ViewThread

• • Hi ! I have a question about passenger hydrofoils. I noticed the ship lengths of both the European hydrofoils or the Boeing Jetfoils are seldom longer than 28 meters. And they seldom carry more than 300 people, am I missing out something ? Why is there a upper bound for hydrofoil vessels ?

• • Also, why is the “FoilCats” (I mean catamarans supported by hydrofoils) not becoming a common passenger vessel type ?

• • Thanks !

[Date/Time=04-12-2003 – 3:45 PM]

Name:Kevin Tse kevin@softrepublic.com, [Msgid=415658]
Large Hydrofoil Passenger Liners

• • You have an interesting question about the size limitations of hydrofoils. Large, ocean-going hydrofoils were once a popular dream and even considered inevitable for the future… including a nuclear powered design. Take a look at our page on popular magazine articles at

https://archive.foils.org/popmags.htm

• • . The earliest article on this subject we cite there is “To Cross Atlantic in Thirty Hours,”

Technical World Magazine,

• • Oct 1907, by Wm. G. Fitz-Gerald. The most recent is “100 Knot Liner Has Sea Wings,”

Popular Science

• • March 1959 by Alden P. Armagnac.

• • Bob Johnston once answered the more general question as to why there are not more hydrofoils this way:

• • [19 Apr 98] First, regarding size, the foil lifting capacity is an area function, increasing with the square of the speed. So in the practical speed range of 40 to 50 knots with the size of the hydrofoil craft increasing by a cubic function, the foil dimensions become relatively quite large. A Navy study concluded that a 2,000 ton hydrofoil was about a limiting size. Range is another consideration. Hydrofoils can be shown to compete commercially with aircraft up to about 300 miles on a time basis for downtown to downtown routes. This takes into consideration time to and from airports and the ability of the hydrofoil to go downtown to downtown. Hydrofoils have demonstrated their ability to provide superior rough water passenger comfort. So in adverse sea conditions, sea state three and above, their ride quality and speed are better than other high speed sea craft. The real problem is that hydrofoils have a high first cost on the basis of cost per seat mile. It has been determined that the acquisition cost is the driving factor in most acquisition decisions. To increase the use of commercial hydrofoils, studies that I have been involved with indicate that there is a market for small, 100 to 300 seat capacities, at speeds in the 40 to 50 knot speed range, with submerged foils and automatic control systems. But the first cost has to be made more attractive than available hydrofoils on the market today. I would like to see some concentrated design effort put into this area by a responsible designer and builder.

• • Maybe some of our engineer members or visitors could add to that response.

[Date/Time=04-13-2003 – 7:05 AM]

Name:Barney C Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=415992]
Re; Hydrofoil Size

• • Keven

• • Barney’s comments are very appropriate.

• • As for Catermaran’s assisted by Hydrofoils. they are becomming more common lately. First, about six years ago they were used originally for motion stabilization. Then the designers and operators discovered that the Foils also provided lift that could be used to lift the hulls out of the water which reduced both Skin Friction Drag as well as wave making drag while still controlling the motions. They also noticed that placing the four Foils on vertical struts in the bow and stern of each catamaran hull (ie 4 Tee Foils) greatly simplified the structural problems of that foils on had on monohulls.

• • Of course all this is not new. Designers have known all this for a hundred years. However, it is only in the last ten years that the market for high speed catamarans has opened up due to the pioneering work of Australian and European Builders. American operators and builders ignored all this untill just a few years ago when a few builders belatedly noticed what was going on and formed a few liscencing deals with these Foreign designers and builders. It looks like these foil assisted Catamarans may increase the upper size limit of hydrofoils by about a factor of two up to about 4000 tons.

• • In fact it is becoming hard to tell the difference between a catamaran and a hydrofoil, since so many of these new vessels are hybrids of both.

• • You can find web links to some of these Foil assisted Cats on the Linksout IHS web site.

• • Bill White

[Date/Time=04-15-2003 – 12:16 AM]

Name:Bill White bbs@foils.org, [Msgid=417239]
Re; Hydrofoil Size

• • Some work has been done on high speed catamarans using a forward chevron-shaped foil (in plan view) attached between the hulls and two “stub” foils attached in the tunnel, one to either hull, aft. The foils partially lift the hulls out of the water and increase speed and efficiency significantly. Information is available at

https://www.sun.ac.za/kie/unistel/technologies/applics.htm

• • These applications are up to about 140 tons, well below the 4000 ton vessels mentioned by Bill White.

[Date/Time=04-20-2003 – 9:54 PM]

Name:Michael W. Preis mpreis@liu.edu, [Msgid=421047]
Re; Re; Hydrofoil Size

• • To extend on both Bill and Michael’s comments…

• • Hydrofoil-assisted catamaran were first introduced in the 70’s on displacement vessels mainly for motion reduction. Since then hydrofoil applications on catamarans have in general followed two routes. 1. Use of small hydrofoils for active motion control only. THese foils are generally detrimental to resistance. 2. Use of hydrofoils for performance improvement. THese are much larger hydrofoils that carry at 20-90% of the vessel weight. The first vessels of this type were built in South Africa in 1980 although earlier research had been done mainly in Russia.

• • It is only of late that the two fields are really converging and we are now seeing hydrofoil systems for catamarans that fulfill both rolls of active motion control and performance improvement. Good examples are the Almaz Superfoil 40 and the NWBS hydrofoil-assisted trimaran.

• • Concerning sizes, we have successfully model tested foil systems for vessels up to 70m in size, (650 tonnes) and our calculations show that it is feasible to use hydrofoil assistance up to about 80m, 1000 tonnes in size. The limit is mainly a function of speed. If vessels of 80m and larger operate at speeds greater than 60 knots then it would be possible to make use hydrofoils. The difficulty is then of course cavitation and how to apply anti-cavitation technologies to eliminate the detrimental effects.

[Date/Time=04-22-2003 – 3:35 AM]

Name:Gunther Migeotte gunther@cae.co.za, [Msgid=421765]
Re; Hydrofoil Size

• • Kevin,

• • I will also join this discussion with some thoughts:

• • First elaborating on what Bob Johnston once said on the subject of hydrofoil size limits (as noted by Barney): As eluded to by Bob, the weight of a craft can roughly be related to its volume, hence if a hydrofoil is designed to be twice as long, broad and deep as a smaller cousin, then its weight will be roughly eight time as great. If its foil geometry is also simply scaled up by a factor of two in all directions, then its planform area (the area seen from above) will only increase by a factor of four. Because the lift on a foil is in part proportional to the foil planform area, then if the larger hydrofoil is still traveling the same speed as its smaller cousin (as Bob indicate is typically the case), we have the dilemma that the craft weight has now increased 8x but the lift of the foils has only increased 4x. To compensate for this on larger hydrofoils, the foil area must become proportionally larger and larger as the hydrofoil craft gets bigger. This can even be seen in practice on the series of hydrofoils designed by Supramar (see the IHS photo gallery on this website). The relative size of the foils on the PT 150 compared to the rest of that craft is significantly greater than on the smaller PT 20 or PT 50 series hydrofoils which otherwise employed the same design principles.

• • Regarding fully hydrofoil supported catamarans, fellow IHS member S?ren Struntze has in the past compared such designs against typical hydrofoils like the Jetfoil. I think S?ren rightly pointed out that there is a fair amount of additional structural weight associated with a catamaran configuration (for a given passenger capacity) than its monohull counterpart. This comes about simply because there is more hull surface area that needs to be enclosed on a catamaran shape. He feels that this is a drawback for foil supported hydrofoils since hydrofoils craft, more so than most other marine craft other than air cushion vehicles, are reliant on keeping weight to a minimum to maintain foilborne performance for a given amount of installed power.

• • Installing foils on catamarans as ride control systems to improve passenger comfort is another matter and is far more common now than fully hydrofoil supported catamarans. If such smaller ride control foils, which are not intended to support the whole weight of the craft, are set at an angle of maximum lift to drag ratio when not being used for ride control, then that should minimize the total resistance of the craft as far as possible. If more efficient higher aspect ratio foils are used with the intention of providing partial hydrofoil support, then as Gunther mentioned, lower resistance than the equivalent catamaran without foils should be possible at higher speeds.

[Date/Time=04-24-2003 – 9:23 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=423501]
Re; Re; Hydrofoil Size

• • I agree with Martin’s comments except for the points that monohulls are better suited for hydrofoil-assistance than catamarans. It is true that catamarans are generally heavier but what Martin failed to mention is that Catamarans are much beamier than monohulls. THis allows higher aspect ratio foils to be used. On some of our hydrofoil-assisted catamaran designs the foil reaches a L/D= 27 thanks to this. Also catamarans have a lot of excess lateral stability, which is beneficial when lifting the hull out of the water. THere is no need to introduce anf fancy additions to the foils for lateral stability like on Denison and other boats. The whole boat is inherently stable on foils w/o ride control or surface piercing foils.

[Date/Time=04-24-2003 – 9:43 AM]

Name:Gunther Migeotte gunther@cae.co.za, [Msgid=423511]
Re; Re; Re; Hydrofoil Size

• • In answer to Gunther, I agree in general with these comments, however in reality foils used for control purposes can be designed for neutral effect on performance by adding just enough lift, via trim or camber, to reduce wetted surface enough to compensate for the fin/foil drag.

• • We also have successfully (Very successfully, I might add) tested a hybrid concept for dynamically supported craft, now known as a DAT, or Dynamically Assisted Trimaran designed by Techman A/S of Norway. You may read about it in the current issue of Fast Ferry International.

• • I will add that the concept was tested in very rough seas during a recent transit,(H1/3=4 Ft model scale, equiv. to H1/3=16 Ft full scale) and the performance was absolutely incredible! 1/3rd octave vertical acceleration spectra are actually still quite similar to that shown in the article, and are the lowest of any vessel we’ve tested. Photos and some data plots may be seen on our web site.

• • Rick Loheed,

HTTPs://www.islandengineering.com

[Date/Time=04-24-2003 – 10:22 AM]

Name:Rick Loheed RLoheed@islandengineering.com, [Msgid=423533]
Re; Re; Re; Re; Hydrofoil Size

ViewThread

• • Rick,

• • I am aware of your vessel and have followed the development with interest. Congratulations on a very nice design! I understand that your foil system carries about 30% of the total wieght on the foils. This would be enough to give you resistance reduction at high speed (about 5-10% higher speed compared to the hull w/o foils I would guess).

• • Your vessel is an example of what I was getting at in my earlier message, that the purpose the foils is really two fold now.

[Date/Time=04-24-2003 – 11:26 AM]

Name:Gunther Migeotte gunther@cae.co.za, [Msgid=423576]
re;

• • Gunther,

• • Actually, the design lift fraction range is from 55% to 90% full scale, and we have actually flown the manned model at 100%, requiring an additional low water pickup arrangement… However, as others have correctly pointed out, as the vessel displacement increases as a cubic function and foil lift as a square function, various sizes can achieve differing amounts of lift fraction, so we can fly the model as a pure hydrofoil but not the full scale craft. Cavitation at full scale also limits incidence substantially, a problem the testcraft does not have due to model Froude scale speeds. (Reynolds number scaling would require ~300 Knots!)

• • When we do trials, I much prefer being on the MM56CX rather than the chase boat- even though it is a very nice deep V offshore boat you get pounded (and wet..) compared to the ‘magic carpet’ and enclosed cabin of the MM56CX testcraft! In fact, we wish we had another one to do our photography for us, because nothing else is as still, save maybe a helicopter!

• • Our ‘flight control’ system is really the key- we have a fully operational digital fly-by-wire system that performs motion control as well as flight attitude and height control, and therefore we are free to design for highly efficient fully submerged foil systems.

• • Rick Loheed

HTTPs://www.islandengineering.com

[Date/Time=04-24-2003 – 12:01 PM]

Name:Rick Loheed RLoheed@islandengineering.com, [Msgid=423588]
Re; Hydrofoil Size

• • Gunther,

• • I am pleased to see your reply that the typically large beam of catamarans allows efficient high aspect ratio foils to be fitted between the hulls. I also agree that having a catamaran partly supported by foils makes control of stability so much more straightforward and so would reduce both capital and maintenance costs for the craft.

• • Returning to fully supported catamaran hydrofoils, all those that I am aware of do make use of high aspect ratio aft foils spanning between the hulls, but the bow foils are separate inverted T foils placed below each demi-hull and my guess is that they would have about the same aspect ratio as the single bow foil of a Jetfoil. All in all, it seems the foil supported catamarans may not be taking full advantage of the available beam of the craft. This may well be for good technical reasons and I seem to recall for the Kvaerner Foilcat that this geometry was stated to be preferable for control of motions in waves. I will try to obtain some hard and fast numbers on the various aspect ratios of foils on and report back on fully hydrofoil supported catamarans and say the Jetfoil.

[Date/Time=04-28-2003 – 10:25 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=426363]
Re; Re; Hydrofoil Size

ViewThread

• • Martin,

• • I agree that in terms of efficiency designs like the foilcat do not take full advantage of the span. Also the tip vortices from the front foils influence the rear foil causing cavitation. Kvaerner got around this by creating a foil with varying incidence along the span- very complicated and expensive to manufacture. I had the opportunity to look close up at a Foilcat in dry dock recently. The front foils are almost exactly the same size as the jetfoil.

• • Apart from control, the front foil struts are rotatable and are used as rudders.

[Date/Time=04-30-2003 – 3:19 AM]

Name:Gunther Migeotte gunther@cae.co.za, [Msgid=427677]
Re; Re; Re; Hydrofoil Size

• • Gunther,

• • I have not been able to track down foil geometry details for any of the existing foilcats to compare the potential foil efficiency but your own feedback suggests the L/D of the Jetfoil bow foil and that of the pair of Foilcat bow foils would have been similar.

• • In discussing this subject with Tony Elms at Seastate Pty Ltd, he advised that Westamarin personnel once stated the reasons that they adopted a split bow foil arrangement on their fully foil supported catamaran. This was to avoid the risk of bow diving should a front foil broach and ventilate. Their view was that the risk of a pair of separate bow foils both ventilating simultaneously was small and so if either one or the other did so, the remaining wetted bow foil could carry the load and so give a more graceful drop of the bow. This is wise, but I wonder whether it wouldn’t have also been possible to achieve a the same result using a single bow foil but incorporating a number of substantial fences across the span of the foil so as to avoid the entire loss of lift should either side of the foil broach in waves. With such an arrangement, flaps could still have been added to the forward or aft struts to provide steering.

• • Regards,

• • Martin

[Date/Time=05-06-2003 – 8:32 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=431041]
Re; Re; Re; Hydrofoil Size

ViewThread

• • Gunther,

• • I have not been able to track down foil geometry details for any of the existing foilcats to compare the potential foil efficiency but your own feedback suggests the L/D of the Jetfoil bow foil and that of the pair of Foilcat bow foils would have been similar.

• • In discussing this subject with Tony Elms at Seastate Pty Ltd, he advised that Westamarin personnel once stated the reasons that they adopted a split bow foil arrangement on their fully foil supported catamaran. This was to avoid the risk of bow diving should a front foil broach and ventilate. Their view was that the risk of a pair of separate bow foils both ventilating simultaneously was small and so if either one or the other did so, the remaining wetted bow foil could carry the load and so give a more graceful drop of the bow. This is wise, but I wonder whether it wouldn’t have also been possible to achieve a the same result using a single bow foil but incorporating a number of substantial fences across the span of the foil so as to avoid the entire loss of lift should either side of the foil broach in waves. With such an arrangement, flaps could still have been added to the forward or aft struts to provide steering.

• • Regards,

• • Martin

[Date/Time=05-06-2003 – 8:34 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=431042]
Re; Re; Re; Re; Hydrofoil Size

• • Dear Martin,

• • THat is interesting what Tony Elms says. A few years ago we were contacted by Kvaerner regarding precisely that problem: they were experiencing bow diving in certain following wave conditions. I speak under correction but I think this problem was one of the reasons that the Kvaerner FoilCat was dicontinued.

• • I have done substantial model testing with full bow foils and split foils as well. My results show that the full bow foil due to its large size prevents bow diving at least in the configuration we use it: in surface effect. If it does broach and then submerge the bow somewhat, as soon as lift is restored the hull is immediately lifted out again. This happens before the bow submerged and has not resulted in a kind of crash stop as expereinced by the FoilCat.

• • Due you know if SeaState have any interest in hydrofoil assistance for catamarans. I would like to discuss that with them if they have interest.

• • BR Gunther

[Date/Time=05-06-2003 – 11:57 AM]

Name:Gunther Migeotte gunther@cae.co.za, [Msgid=431135]
Evenrude Jetstream

ViewThread

• • According to the British magazine

Practical Mechanics

• • , August 1961 issue, Evenrude Corp marketed the “Jetstream” (see sketch below). According to the article, the Jetstream “combines the advantages of an ordinary hull at low speeds with those of the hydrofoil concept at high speeds. Two 13 ft. pontoons are mounted to the hull on folded arms. These are lowered into the water, and as the maximum speed with the primary hull is approached, the primary jull reaises clear of the surface and the craft planes on its floats. I would be interested to hear from anyone who knows whether this craft was actually manufactured.

[Date/Time=05-09-2003 – 11:35 AM]

Name:Barney C. Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=433017]
Re; Evenrude Jetstream

• • Why not e-mail the Evenrude corp.? I would be quite interested as well.

• • Steve Rhodes

[Date/Time=05-12-2003 – 1:01 PM]

Name:Steve Rhodes srhodes@domus-usa.com, [Msgid=434280]
Re; Evenrude Jetstream

• • Barney,

• • An unusual concept, thats for sure! But you would also have noticed that there is no hint that any hydrofoils are actually used, other than that the word appears in the blurb. It would seem simpler to me to just build a catamaran to start with or alternatively stick to the planing monohull… which ever has least resistance at the maximum design speed.

• • Regards,

• • Martin

[Date/Time=05-15-2003 – 9:12 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=435860]
Hydrofoil Museum in CFF

• • I commend to your attention the April issue of Classic Fast Ferries

http://home20.inet.tele.dk/cff/pdf/cff_2003_3.pdf

• • 18 of 20 pages are devoted to hydrofoils. Included is a three-page discussion of a Hydrofoil Museum, including reference to IHS efforts:

Is the Hydrofoil Ready for the Museum? –Or Is the World Ready for a Hydrofoil Museum?

• • Considerable emphasis here on models.

[Date/Time=05-28-2003 – 7:18 PM]

Name:Ken Spaulding kboyd@erols.com, [Msgid=443291]
Unknown Hydrofoil CYRA

ViewThread

• • Does anybody knew somthing about a small passenger hydrofoil named “Cyra”. Please take a look on the attached photo, tken from the book “Schiffstypen” by Dudszus/Koepcke, GDR, Transpress-Verlag.

• • This photo has been taken in the harbour of Hamburg in the 70s or the 80s. The boat itself is small and looks more like an east-european design.

[Date/Time=06-01-2003 – 12:26 PM]

Name:Christof Schramm c_schramm@T-Online.de, [Msgid=445206]
Attached File  “Cyra~jpg.zip” – size 784238   Click Here To Download
Re; Unknown Hydrofoil CYRA

• • Hello

• • An interesting photo indeed!

• • Cyra is an Aquavion Aquastroll 40P built 1964 by Aviolanda in Papendrecht, Netherlands. She was originally named Shadowfax and was used in a short-lived traffic between the English mainland and the Channel Islands. There are some pictures and data on the PDF-files that Vik Poremskis has supplied to the IHS site. Search for Aquavion.

• • There is also a video of her available from British Pathe:

www.britishpathe.com

• • , search for hydrofoil. The full video costs 50? but they also have a free preview service. You have to register though.

• • I’m happy to have the name Cyra confirmed for this vessel. I have seen the name in Lloyd’s Shipowners 1978-79 but the corresponding issue of Lloyd’s Register has no entry for Cyra. Shadowfax was registered in earlier issues though.

• • As I am researching the history of Aquavion, I would be happy for any other information you can dig up on this photo.

• • Regards

• • Eje

[Date/Time=06-02-2003 – 3:26 PM]

Name:Eje Flodstrom eje_flodstrom@yahoo.com, [Msgid=445885]
1980s Vessel

ViewThread

• • Long before I was a maintenance mechanic/ flight engineer for Seajets, in West Palm Beach, I worked at all sorts of marine jobs in the Pacific Northwest. On one of my trips out to Westport, Washington, I snapped a few photos of this interesting looking vessel, photo taken in the mid-1980s. Just thought I’d share it with you.

[Date/Time=06-02-2003 – 7:51 PM]

Name:Cary Holmes csholmes77@hotmail.com, [Msgid=446013]
Re; 1980s Vessel

• • Thanks, Cary. That appears to be the Westfoil. We have a couple of photos in our gallery near the bottom of the following page:

https://archive.foils.org/gallery/world.htm
[Date/Time=06-02-2003 – 8:00 PM]

Name:Barney C Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=446017]
PS-30 Jetfoil in KOREA

• • for people who are interested to know this Chinese made Jetfoil now operating in Korea, look at this video:

http://www.mirejet.com/images/mirejet.wmv

• • now they are serving a route from Korea to Japan.

[Date/Time=06-10-2003 – 4:37 AM]

Name:Kevin Tse kevin@softrepublic.com, [Msgid=449829]
PGH-2 TUCUMCARI Veteran

• • I was on board TUCUMCARI PGH-2 1970-1972. I was the radioman and was discharged just a couple of months prior to her hitting the reef.

[Date/Time=06-14-2003 – 7:21 PM]

Name:james “jimmy” trussell jtbaseball@i-55.com, [Msgid=452819]
PHMRON 2 veterans

ViewThread

• • This July 30th will be the 10th anniversary of the PHM squadron decommissioning. I wish to extend all best wishes to our shipmates, the veterans of the PHM crews, MLSG and PHM Squadron 2 staff. I look forward to raising a glass (splice the main brace)at Turtle Krawls in Key West on this date, to you all.

[Date/Time=06-16-2003 – 4:55 AM]

Name:steve novell (Jolly-OS1, PHM1) sjnovell@mindspring.com, [Msgid=453350]
Turtle Krawls

ViewThread

• • Hi Steve, I hope a lot of people show up and that it becomes an annual event! Any particular time o’ day that you plan to be there?

• • Turtle Krawls Bar & Grill

• • 1 Margaret Street

• • Key West, FL

• • 305-294-2640

[Date/Time=06-17-2003 – 4:45 AM]

Name:Barney C Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=454016]
PCH-1 Highpoint photo

ViewThread

• • Here’s a pic by my son Michael Cline of the current state of the Highpoint moored near Tongue Point, Astoria, Oregon. I worked for Boeing Hydrofoil Div. during the latter stages of the Tucumcari development.

[Date/Time=06-26-2003 – 1:42 PM]

Name:Bob Cline clinewlt@pacifier.com, [Msgid=460196]
Attached File  “HighPoint~jpg.zip” – size 392650   Click Here To Download
Re; PCH-1 Highpoint photo

• • Thank you for this excellent (and large!) photo of

HIGHPOINT

• • today. A smaller version appears below. This is a good opportunity to point out some of the

HIGHPOINT

• • information available on the IHS website and elsewhere. Archived correspondence on this subject appears on our page at

https://archive.foils.org/highpt.htm

• • . Additional photos are in the gallery on our page at

https://archive.foils.org/gallery/usn.htm

• • . IHS Member Bob Phillips is the current owner. He has done good work on an interesting and folksy webpage for the ship at

http://rpstander.tripod.com/

• • . That site has photos, drawings, and other information that will be of interest to hydrofoil history buffs and modelers. The faces in the pictures will be an interesting update for people who worked in the US military hydrofoil programs.

[Date/Time=06-28-2003 – 7:34 AM]

Name:Barney C Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=461174]
Re; Turtle Krawls

• • Well, I thought about hanging out starting at 10 am until mid afternoon. then cleanup and head out for dinner at 2 friends, and then do the duval crawl.

[Date/Time=06-29-2003 – 2:00 PM]

Name:steve novell steve.novell@novellfamily.com, [Msgid=461681]
Hydrofoil Waterski History

• • The Air Chair and other hydrofoil waterskis are well known now, but what is the history of foils on skis? A spec sheet up for auction on eBay dates back to the 1960s and describes a foil kit for waterskis. The name of the kit is Dynaflite Hydrofoils, distributed by City Engineering Co. of Indianapolis, Indiana. According to the fact sheet, the Dynaflite foils “can be attached to any pair of skis.”I couldn’t quite read the price with certainty from the small photo on eBay, but it looks like $34.95.

[Date/Time=07-13-2003 – 7:12 AM]

Name:Barney C Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=469001]
PHM-5 Historic Significance

• • We are making application to be placed on the register of historic

• • ships. We could use some help with that application. Anyone that can

• • write down some reasons why this ship should be considered historic and subsequently preserved, can email that to me to include in our

• • application. It seems obvious to me that what the ships represents

• • technically alone is reason enough, we need to educate the reviewing

• • panel on the why, any help will be very much appreciated. Once this

• • happens, we will be eligible for grant monies from programs such as

• • Save Americas Treasures grants and others that will help us get the ship flying again. Website:

http://www.ussaries.org
[Date/Time=08-08-2003 – 4:46 PM]

Name:Eliot James esjames@cvalley.net, [Msgid=484403]
PHM Reunion With a PHM

• • We regret we weren’t able to put together a trip to Key West for a PHM reunion commemorating the 10th anniversary of the decommissioning. We are working towards sailing back to Key West and having that reunion and if someone wants to get involved in helping prepare for it, we need to secure docking facilities in Key West. Someone who could get us docking for a month or two, time enough to earn cash from tours to put fuel in the tanks for a return trip would be more that welcome to cruise along with us the week or so it would take to get to Key West.

• • Website:

http://www.ussaries.org
[Date/Time=08-08-2003 – 4:49 PM]

Name:Eliot James esjames@cvalley.net, [Msgid=484404]
Yamaha OU-32 Page is Gone

ViewThread

• • It looks like Yamaha has removed the page with OU-32 information. Do you have any of that archived? I just looked at it last week, and of course now that I need it, it’s gone. I tried to find a contact email but didn’t have any luck. The page URL was

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/cp/challenge/expansion/ou32/ou32.html
[Date/Time=09-03-2003 – 7:27 PM]

Name:Doug Bedient doug@ahfactory.com, [Msgid=499932]
Re; Yamaha OU-32 Page is Gone

ViewThread

• • The Internet Archive “Wayback Machine” at

http://www.archive.foils.org

• • provides snapshots over time of entire websites going back several years. I searched for the OU-32 webpage and found it… but Japanese text only; the archive did not preserve the photos and film clip.

• • So… Now what? Here are a couple of ideas:

• • 1. The Discovery Channel TV Program “Beyond 2000” that featured the OU-32 personal watercraft was released on VHS videotape back in the early 1990s. The title of the videotape was “Super Boats and High-Speed Hydroprototypes.” I see this tape up for auction on eBay from time to time. It may still be available from Discovery channel or a secondary video seller, I did not check.

• • 2. IHS Member Kotaro Horiuchi was the designer of various experimental marine vehicles at Yamaha dating back to the 1950s. He published a book “A Locus of a Boat Designer, [ISBN4-8072-4201-6]” in which there is detail on many of his other projects. Last I heard, he had another book coming out that would cover his Human Powered Boat and engine-powered hydrofoils in detail. These books are in Japanese, though they have photos and charts. He speaks a little bit of English. You could try contacting him by email to request a copy of the photos and video clip that were on the Yamaha website, though I don’t guarantee he will reply to you. His email is:

horiuchi@ta2.so-net.ne.jp

• • .

[Date/Time=09-03-2003 – 7:47 PM]

Name:Barney C Black webmaster@foils.org, [Msgid=499951]
Re; Re; Yamaha OU-32 Page is Gone

• • I saved the photos and video from the page and will e-mail them to you. If anyone else would like them, feel free to contact me.

[Date/Time=09-04-2003 – 2:09 PM]

Name:Scott Smith ssmith@syntheon.com, [Msgid=500719]
Hydrofoils on the History Channel

• • For hydrofoilers in the USA: The History Channel will feature a high-flying segment about US Navy hydrofoils within its blockbuster MAIL CALL television series on Sunday night, October 5th, at 10 pm EDT/PDT and 9 pm CDT. This segment reportedly includes some never-before-seen archival footage taken in 1968 of the first fleet hydrofoil,

TUCUMCARI

• • , as well as a recent interview with her first Skipper (and IHS-member), Martinn Mandles. The International Hydrofoil Society is credited by the producers, and our IHS website is listed for viewers who would like to learn more about hydrofoils. The colorful host of MAIL CALL is a former Marine Corps drill instructor (and award-winning actor), R. Lee Ermey. This episode of MAIL CALL is a “must-watch” for all members and friends of the IHS!

[Date/Time=09-23-2003 – 7:06 PM]

Name:Martinn Mandles MHMandles@aol.com, [Msgid=513075]
PIAGGIO P7 Hydroplane

ViewThread

• • Gentlemen,

• • first of all I’m italian and so my english is poor: consider this in trying to hunderstand me.

• • I am not an hydrofoil specialist but I am fond of aviation history, in particular about the history of the company I am working with: PIAGGIO.

• • I have classified my question as historical but there is also a technical aspect.

• • PIAGGIO has been involved with aeroplanes since 1915 and in the twenties our Technical Director, Mr. Giovanni Pegna, was working on installing hydrofoils in place of floaters on hydroplanes to reduce the drag.

• • I have seen that in the forum of your site that you already know the esistence of the PIAGGIO P.7 hydroplane that was designed and built (two) to partecipate to the Schneider Trophy 1929 edition.

• • I enclose a picture showing a drawing of the tentative of Pegna to install hydrofoils on a MACCHI M.7ter hidroplane of the twenties.

• • To have an idea of wht was the PIAGGIO P.7, you can read a translation in english of a paper written by Giovanni Pegna in 1932 about the aeroplane at the following address.

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/en/history/pegna2.htm

• • .

• • The story of the P.7 is somehow sad: the hydroplane was never able to take off (like the Convair Sea Dart as I read from your site).

• • Now I am trying to analyse the P.7 from the aerodynamic point of view to undestand if it would be competitive with the other participants of the Schneider Trophy (i.e. Supermarine S.6, Macchi MC72 ecc.).

• • But I am also curious about the reason why it could not take off.

• • Mr. Pegna said that the there was a sort of cavitation:

• • …”But, when I increased model towing speed, behaviour became strange and impressive. Suddenly it falled into water and proceeded as if it had no fins, or slipped sideways to make a complete roll.

• • The phenomenon was immediately identified, and the result was a sort of “cavitation”, as I could compare it to the phenomenon happening to a water propeller above a certain peripheral speed. When model speed rised to a certain value the fins were almost completely emerged, and suddenly ater detached from their back and air replaced water, recalled by the surface of the latter. Since then, fins lift was generated by lower surface alone, with steep fall in lift coefficient estimated at 1/4 of the original one When the phenomenon was simultaneous in both fins, model was falling upright, aotherwise it slipped as I said.”

• • My question is:

• • The hydrofoils adopted by Pegna were in a “reverse V” configuration, like a wing with a very important negative dihedral. I think this is a configuration that is inherently unstable. Am I right?

• • Have you any idea of the technical reasons of this strange design choice?

• • Pegna put two “skates” on the tips of the hydrofoils as you can see from tha picture enclosed. I think that if the two skated would have been connected with a V shaped foil (like the hydrofiol of a boat) the aeroplane would have become stable. It this true?

• • Any idea, suggestion or opinion about the hydrodynamics of the P.7 will also be interesting form me.

• • Thank you in advance for considering my questions.

• • Have a good day.

• • Paolo Chiarlone

[Date/Time=10-03-2003 – 9:45 AM]

Name:Paolo Chiarlone PChiarlone@piaggioaero.it, [Msgid=519053]
 Image Attached:  “P7_trittico.gif”   Click Here To View
Re; PIAGGIO P7 Hydroplane

• • Dear Paolo,

• • It is nice to be reminded of the Piaggio P7 once again. As I indicated in an earlier message on the IHS website, I once saw a small-scale model of this interesting aircraft.

• • You indicated that the hydrofoils adopted by Pegna were in a “reverse V” configuration and also mentioned that ?skates? were placed at the ends of these hydrofoils. In fact, what you have interpreted to be “reverse V” hydrofoils are in fact simply the support struts for the hydrofoils. The hydrofoils that were intended to support the weight of the aircraft during take-off are what you call the “skates”. These were apparently small tapered planform hydrofoils (like a pair of small versions of the wings of the aircraft itself, realising that water density is about 800 times more than air). This pair of hydrofoils were therefore of a slight dihedral configuration (as seen in the front view of your attached arrangement drawing).

• • You are correct that an arrangement with negative dihedral would have been inherently unstable. The support struts would therefore have been an unstable configuration for roll if they generated lift. In flight these would have been aligned to the air flow, but with a steep nose up attitude during the start of take-off, they may well have contributed to the total lift generated on the aircraft and so would have contributed to roll instability.

• • The problems of ventilation as the foils reached the water surface would have been a more serious problem, but I would have thought that by that time, perhaps the wings of the aircraft may already have been able to take over in supporting the weight of the aircraft with the application of a little elevator as the foils started to ventilate? There is some evidence on your drawing that the hydrofoils were fitted with flaps. Perhaps it was intended that the pilot should control any roll tendency manually during take-off using these flaps plus the ailerons on the wings?

[Date/Time=10-07-2003 – 9:16 AM]

Name:Martin Grimm seaflite@alphalink.com.au, [Msgid=520942]
Re; Re; PIAGGIO P7 Hydroplane

• • Hi Martin,

• • nice to ?meet? you on the web and thanks for considering my questions about the P.7.

• • I have said that Pegna adopted a sort of ?reverse V? configuration seeing the picture enclosed (taken from the website you mentioned and related to his application for a patent) in which you can see what he had in mind for hydrofoils. Furthermore, in his description Pegna says that the ?skates? were intended to be ?slipping bodies?. In other words, I have interpreted what you call ?the supporting struts for the hydrofoils? as the hydrofoils themselves since in the original application patent there was not any ?skate? on the tips, as it can be seen clearly in the picture enclosed.

• • Now I understand that what we today call ?hydrofoils? are wings flying in the water, i.e. generating lift by circuitation (I have read the tutorial on the IHS website). On the other side the ?skates? on the tips of the hydrofoils of the P.7 were intended to be surfaces slipping on the surface of the water (as indicated by Pegna in describing his solution and comparing them to flat rocks launched tangentially to the water surface) and generate lift without circuitation but by the dynamic pressure on the lower surface of the skate.

• • Since you confirm that ?reverse V? airfoils are unstable for roll, I don not understand the design choice taken by Pegna to adopt them. He had experience in the field of hydrodynamics being involved in experimentation at the Froude water tunnell of La Spezia in Italy at the beginning of the century. I have also a picture of a PIAGGIO drawing dated 1929 signed by him showing two ?sort of hydrofoils? installed on a Macchi M.7ter conventional hydroplane, probably an experiment (I am not able to attach it to this message since the BBS allows only one attachment).

• • For sure he knew the studies made in Italy by Crocco and Forlanini about hydrofoils around 1910 (see, among others,

http://digilander.libero.it/dbmontello/Forlanini.htm

• • ) and in 1911 he designed also a flying boat (a canard configuration motor boat that I think it was intended to fly in ground (I should say water) effect).

• • As you can see, Forlanini designed a sort of ?ladder shaped? hydrofoil which adjusted automatically ?step by step? the submerged foil surface in function of the speed and lift required, like modern ?surface piercing hydrofoil? that, if I have well understood, does the same thing continuously.

• • Now, I do not understand why Pegna adopted a roll unstable solution and then, to correct instability (and / or cavitation?) adopted the sliding skates. Why he adopted the solution of the skates while probably increasing the surface would have solved the cavitation problem and giving them a positive dihedral would have solved the stability one?

• • Is the solution of the skates (slipping on the water surface) feasible today ? Has the skates been adopted in any modern application?

• • About your last sentence, you are right. To solve the stability problem, Pegna was intended to adopt two small moving surfaces on the skates (like ailerons on the wing) that were designed to move syncronously with the ailerons. The real aeroplane had not the small hydro-ailerons installed because of lack of time. In fact Pegna said in his report ?I stress that I did not install the controllable ailerons on the fins since there was no sufficient time, trusting in pilot’s training to overcome the short instability transient in water?.

• • Finally, about scaled model of the P.7 there are some more interesting things to say.

• • For sure the P.7 solution works on scaled models. I once saw a moving picture of a P.7 scale model taking off from the water. The model was built by an Italian modeller. Furthermore, on the web there are some picture of another model made by a French which has been able to take off successfully as you can see at:

http://www.angelfire.com/sports/aeromodelismelutry/Fichier_histoire/1920_piaggiopc7.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/sports/aeromodelismelutry/Fichier_maquettes/piaggiopegnapc7.htm

• • Very interesting for me to talk with you. Have a nice day.

• • Paolo Chiarlone

[Date/Time=10-09-2003 – 8:43 AM]

Name:Paolo Chiarlone PChiarlone@piaggioaero.it, [Msgid=522263]
 Image Attached:  “P7_BrevettoPegna_1.jpg”   Click Here To View
Re; Re; Re; PIAGGIO P7 Hydroplane

• • Paolo

• • This is an interesting discussion.

• • I believe that Martin is on the right track in assuming that the bottom Skates are the primary lifting Foil on this plane. From your attached sketch the foils are angled so that their center lift is above the planes center fo gravity. This would provide inherent Roll Stability. I also agree with Martin that there appear to be trailing roll control flaps on the scates as well to further control Roll.

• • The Angled struts are probably the cause of the Ventilation problem. Your assuption that they provided some lift is also correct. However, as the plane accellerates and changes it’s angle of attact these Canted Foils in my experience often open a surface cavity at the trailing edge that sucks air all the way down to the Skates. This causes them to ventilate as well and the Skates then become unstable in lift. It also tends to happen with only one strut at first which causes further roll instability. We used to control this problem by putting small anti-ventilation collars at several points down the length of the struts to block the ventilations downward path.

• • Thanks for the websites links.

• • Bill White

[Date/Time=10-15-2003 – 9:30 AM]

Name:Bill White whitewn@speakeasy.net, [Msgid=525587]
Jetfoil Photos Required

ViewThread

• • Hi all,

• • I am trying to do a book about all the jetfoils existing and existed in the world. If anyone from the forum is in possession or has access to any photos of jetfoil (whether digital or print) please let me know. Some jetfoil photos are really difficult to acquire as many operators have ceased to operate and a few odd vessels are scattered around the world other than the concentrated areas of Japan and Hong Kong. My email is

kevin@softrepublic.com

• • Kevin

[Date/Time=02-06-2004 – 11:57 AM]

Name:Kevin Tse kevin@softrepublic.com, [Msgid=585321]
Re; Jetfoil Photos Required

• • Keven

• • Don’t overlook our photo gallery at

https://archive.foils.org/gallery/jetfoil.htm

• • for our collection of Jetfoil pics

• • Bill White

[Date/Time=02-08-2004 – 9:13 PM]

Name:Bill White whitewn@speakeasy.net, [Msgid=593148]
High Point Web Site

ViewThread

• • Dear All,

• • I came across the following web site:

http://rpstander.tripod.com/

• • in which there are quite a lot of photos of Jetfoils. Anybody knows who made the site and any of the people who worked on High Point Jetfoil ?

• • Thanks and have a nice day !

• • Kevin Tse

[Date/Time=02-17-2004 – 5:04 AM]

Name:Kevin Tse kevin@softrepublic.com, [Msgid=598125]
Re; High Point Web Site

• • The web site belongs to the owner of HIGH POINT. HIGH POINT is not a jet foil, but a patrol craft designed by the Navy and built by Boeing under Navy contract. HIGH POINT (PCH-1) was originally assigned to the Navy fleet, but was subsequently turned over to the David Taylor Model Basin for research and development work.

• • S. Arima

[Date/Time=02-17-2004 – 12:34 PM]

Name:IS. Arima arimas1@juno.com, [Msgid=598273]
Jetfoil around the World

• • Hi, I’m now working on a research project on tracing all 47(?) jetfoils around the world. But it’s very diffcult to find information about the Jetfoils in Saudi Arabia and Indonesia . I wonder does anyone here would have related information to share? Thanks.

[Date/Time=02-26-2004 – 8:09 AM]

Name:Felix Ng felisvoski@yahoo.com.hk, [Msgid=603757]
Ships That Fly

• • To All Fellow Hydrofoilers;

• • About 10 years ago I collected a lot of material about hydrofoils and put it all together in a book called Ships That Fly. It became a story of the modern hydrofoil covering the early days of hydrofoil inventors and experimenters and taking the reader through over 150 pictures and illustrations of hydrofoils leading to those of recent years. I recently had the pages of the book scanned and put in a pdf file and placed on a CD that is being offered for sale.

• • You will note that Chapter 6, The US Navy Fleet Hydrofoil-PHM, ends with a very optimistic view of PHMs in the current US Navy, and larger hydrofoils in its future. However, this was not to be. Several years following the completion of my book, Ships That Fly, there were events surrounding the US Navy PHM program that are described in an Addendum to Chapter 6. All six PHM ships were decommissioned on July 30, 1993. This was the only time the US Navy has decommissioned an entire class of ships on the same day. This addendum describes some of the events leading to this sad day for the US Navy and the hydrofoil community. Also, documented are the many attempts to save the Ship, the day of the ceremony, attempts to save the ships even after the decommissioning, and finally the subsequent disposal of the ships and their status today.

• • I also collected a series of over 140 hydrofoil pictures and illustrations, and created a Hydrofoil Slide Show, entitled: A Century of Hydrofoil Development.

• • All three of these files are on the CD. To find out more, log onto:

http://themeyers.org/ShipsThatFly/index.html

• • Best regards,

• • John Meyer

jr8meyer@comcast.net
[Date/Time=03-17-2004 – 4:51 PM]

Name:John R. Meyer jr8meyer@comcast.net, [Msgid=616012]
MK 75 MOD 1 Gun System ISEA

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• • Have been reading posted messages on the bulletin board at your sight. I, too, spent lots of time at MLSG, Key West on TDY performing MK 75 CASREP repairs and ORDALT upgrades on the PHMs. Most of my days in doing so were between 1982 and 1987. Was always good to visit Key West and the crews of the PHMs and MLSG. The one name I noticed in the posted messages that I recall is the of Bob Adams. He gave me some 76mm spent brass casings once when I was there to conduct a MK 75 change-out on the TAURUS; believe that was SEP ’87.

• • I still am an engineer in the MK 75 ISEA Office which has always been here in Louisville, KY. Would appreciate hearing from anyone that has some ‘good’ photos of the PHMs for our office.

• • Thanks for the Memories,

• • Jerry R. Grasmick, Electrical Engineer

• • Naval Surface Warfare Center (alias Naval Ordnance Station Louisvile; NOSL)

• • MK 75 ISEA, Code G41

• • 160 Rochester Drive

• • Louisville, KY 40214-2681

• • DSN 989-5045

Jerry.Grasmick@navy.mil
[Date/Time=04-09-2004 – 4:31 PM]

Name:Jerry R. Grasmick Jerry.Grasmick@navy.mil, [Msgid=628849]
 Image Attached:  “PHM2&3.JPG”   Click Here To View
Re; MK 75 MOD 1 Gun System ISEA

• • Jerry, check out the Photo Gallery on theInternational Hydrofoil Society’s website. Go to

https://archive.foils.org/gallery/phm.htm

• • Quite a few good PHM pix at this URL.

• • Sincerely,

• • George Jenkins

[Date/Time=04-10-2004 – 10:29 AM]

Name:George Jenkins georgejj@aol.com, [Msgid=629061]
Re; MK 75 MOD 1 Gun System ISEA

• • George,

• • I found your article on the Web Site about the PHM acquisition program most informative. Your Article/Paper was well written. A lot of myths about the PHM Program were clearified in your paper; exhorbatant costs of manufacture, maintenance, etc. I had heard back in the mid ’80s that Congress initially was going to procure ~ 35 of this class and deploy them with Battle Groups; a PHM would be carried (cradled) by a host battle group ship. Then, the PHM program just froze….Congress debated over the completion of PHM-6 USS GEMINI.

• • I just wished that Congress and others had not terminated the program. The ship class had so much potential; even in today’s world conflicts in the Mid East region and for Close-In areas of protection against the “small boat” threat.

• • Regards,

• • JRg, Engineer,Code G41

• • MK 75 ISEA

[Date/Time=04-12-2004 – 9:34 AM]

Name:Jerry R. Grasmick Jerry.Grasmick@navy.mil, [Msgid=629731]
Re; MK 75 MOD 1 Gun System ISEA

• • Jerry,

• • Thanks for the kind words – I’m delighted that you enjoyed the article.

• • To set a couple of things straight in your last posting:

• • – Thirty PHMs were the most PHMs ever FORMALLY discussed with Congress. This number dropped to 24, then ultimately to six, as the Navy refined its requirements for the ships, with attendant increases in construction costs.

• • – The concept of deploying PHMs as parts of Battle Groups was looked at by COMSECONDFLEET, but it was a concept somewhat outside the PHM design box. The ships did much better in quasi-independent operations roles, or paired with an FFG for mutual support. The original game plan was to homeport or forward deploy PHMs, with a dedicated support ship, to their intended area of operations (In practice this would have been the Med/PG). In most planning scenarios, it was envisioned that the PHMs would make their own way to the selected theater of operation. They were designed to do this, but enroute refueling would have been required. To get around the fueling issue, the concept of deck loading PHMs on Amphibs, Auxiliaries, or commercial heavy lift ships was investigated (by OPNAV and NAVSEA, not Congress). All the options for overseas movement were workable, but regrettably never employed.

• • – Congress never actually debated completion of PHM 6, per se. They could have raised hard questions as to why we wanted to build it in an unweaponized condition (we didn’t have the funds at the time), but they didn’t.

• • – Neither did Congress terminate the program. That was done by the Navy itself, in what I believe was a sacrificial attempt to save other, bigger ships in the drawdown of the early nineties.

• • Your last observation is right on. The successful employment of the PC (Patrol Coastal) class – a much less capable ship in many ways – during OIF suggests how valuable the PHMs would have been in the same employment.

• • All the best,

• • George Jenkins

[Date/Time=04-12-2004 – 12:46 PM]

Name:George Jenkins georgejj@aol.com, [Msgid=629842]
Hydrofoil Magazine Collection For Sale

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• • For those who may be interested: I have placed my massive collection of magazines with articles and photos of hydrofoils up for auction on eBay (item #4207059447). The magazines range in date from 1907 to present, with concentration in the 50s and 60s. This auction started today (24 Apr 04) and will run for 10 days. The auction notice contains a full listing of the magazine articles in the collection. More details and cover photos are available on the IHS website for many of the articles included; go to

https://archive.foils.org/popmags.htm

• • . (Note: the collection does

NOT

• • include all of the articles shown on the IHS website!)

• • The link to ebay for the auction is:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4207059447

• • Unfortunately I can ship to addresses within the USA only. If you are outside the USA and want to bid, then you should have a friend or colleague in the USA who can receive the shipment and hold it for you until you visit the USA.

[Date/Time=04-24-2004 – 11:21 AM]

Name:Barney C. Black barney@alum.mit.edu, [Msgid=636332]
Hydrofoil Magazine Collection For Sale

• • The auction is now closed; the magazine collection is sold.

[Date/Time=05-04-2004 – 5:00 PM]

Name:Barney C Black bcblack@erols.com, [Msgid=641704]
Ex Crewmember

• • Joe Landrum, ET1 here. —-o to all who were crewmembers during Plainview’s construction and first foil borne flights in 69. I remained with the ship until my discharge in 71

[Date/Time=05-28-2004 – 9:09 PM]

Name:Joe Landrum joekay45@earthlink.net, [Msgid=655670]
Ex Crewmember

• • Joe Landrum, ET1 here. —-o to all who were crewmembers during Plainview’s construction and first foil borne flights in 69. I remained with the ship until my discharge in 71

[Date/Time=05-28-2004 – 9:09 PM]

Name:Joe Landrum joekay45@earthlink.net, [Msgid=655671]
Hydro Foil Book

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• • I am after a copy of a book :

• • “Twenty Foilborne Years”

• • By William M Ellsworth.

[Date/Time=06-24-2004 – 12:17 AM]

Name:John Halstead amo@qldnet.com.au, [Msgid=668953]
Easy Source of 20 Foilborne Years Book

• • Hi John, The hard copy of this book is long out of print, but it and many other documents on hydrofoils and other advanced marine vehicles are available on the AMV-CD #1 offered by the International Hydrofoil Society for 5.00 USD. This is the total cost, including postage world wide… quite a bargain. For a table of contents and instructions on how to order, go to:

https://archive.foils.org/ihspubs.htm#AMV
[Date/Time=06-29-2004 – 8:01 PM]

Name:Barney C Black bblack11@cox.net, [Msgid=672134]
Baker boats

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• • I would like to comment on the Baker boats.

• • ?

• • on page 23:?? High Pockets did not bank but the front foils were steered and rotated to prevent outward bank taking a turn in level flight to keep the depth of submergence of the inboard and outboard foil the same.? I know because I did the calculation for Gordon.? The turn was limited to 1/3 g.? The people in the boat are ST. Cmdr (then) Bob Johnson, Petty Officer 1/C Soney, Chief Petty Officer Whalen and Seaman 1/C Reid.

• • ?

• • on page 24:? The design cruise speed of High Tail is 21.7 kts and max speed was 32 kts.? The people on board are Adolph Kautz, mech eng, Glenn Lee, mech engr, Gordon Baker and Neil Lien.? This boat did bank on a turn keeping the center rear outboard foil at a constant depth of submergence.? This required the boat to lower its clearnace to the water surface.? The turn was also limited to 1/3g.

• • ?

• • on page 30:? The forces of only the forestay and from the sheet line were fed into a mechanical computer. The side stays had a pivot close to the abeam center line of the mast ball step.? The backstay in flying operation carried no load.

• • ?

• • I am finding your book to be very interesting and am hoping my book will be also.? We are going to the Mariner’s Museum next week.? Karen, my daughter, has promised me she will get at the editing soon.? She has a demanding job and two little boys.? As a father I have requested strongly that my book not interfer with either.

[Date/Time=07-12-2004 – 8:25 PM]

Name:Neil nlien@inwave1.com, [Msgid=678439]
Re; Baker boats

• • Just to clarify, I believe that Neil Lien’s comments address John Meyer’s book “Ships That Fly.” If I am wrong, please correct me here. Information about John Meyer’s excellent book is located at:

http://themeyers.org/ShipsThatFly/

• • .

[Date/Time=07-14-2004 – 5:14 AM]

Name:Barney C Black barney@alum.mit.edu, [Msgid=679266]
AGEH-1 Plainview Plans

• • Hello, I am looking for ship builder plans, or scale views/profiles of the U.S.S Plainview hydrofoil ship. I have looked around alot, and have yet to even come across some simple line drawings of the hull. Can anyone help me please? I am considering doing a radio controlled model, but would like to look over a few of the ones that had been done. I was going to do a PHM-1, but it wasn’t very practical on such limited resources. The Plainview looks more practical, but I would like to see it in views/scale profiles to the scale(s) I would need before considering it completely. Any help please? Thank you much! -James H.

[Date/Time=07-17-2004 – 10:53 PM]

Name:James H. Valkyrie@whoever.com, [Msgid=681312]